Irony

[CE750Driver]

C O T/ BW, can you please answer my question if possible. I know nothing about how union's operate. But this clearly looks like the union want's to include NJI in the pain and not give them any help when it comes to other matter's. Tks

NJI guys should hope the company furloughs from the VSL. There is nothing LEGALLY stopping the company from laying NJI guys off in a manner out of seniority that would result in the least amount of training.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

If NJA will not allow NJI to be involved in their union until intergration why would they expect NJI to furlough on a VSL along with NJA pilot's????

Not true...

I am deeply involved with NJASAP on integration issues (along with 3 colleagues) and have a direct line to them. In fact I just spoke with a VP today.

Sorry Dingus, but your statement is unfounded.

 

[FL450]

It has already been announced that NJLA is finished as of the first part of 2010 and the BBJs will be sold. All NJLA pilots will bid or be displaced to another fleet. They will not be furloughed. To get to those seniority numbers, NJA would no longer exist.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

There is nothing LEGALLY stopping the company from laying NJI guys off in a manner out of seniority that would result in the least amount of training.

Winner winner.... Chicken dinner.

 

[FL450]

Why would NJASAP insist NJA and NJI are one in the same(single carrier) and not insist on anything happening via the VSL? That makes zero sense!
Not accurate at all.

..........don't make me bop you with a dilly bar!

 

[Dirty Dingus]

Wolf, what I'm asking is why does NJA want to include NJI only when it appears to benifit them, ie: pilot furlough's, (such as the VSL) and not let them into the union family, in any form at all at this time?????
Also has the NJI mgt ever screwed over the NJI pilot's to the point where the pilot's shouldn't trust them. Just asking, I know nothing much of what's going on there!!!!!

 

[notapilot]

Griz, maybe that happens next week? Even so, it does seem a bit backwards to me. I was taught that when you're seriously cleaning house you start at the top and work your way down.

Who taught you that? That's never been how it's done and makes no sense. Stick to other topics you no nothing about.

 

[netjetwife]

Dingus, furloughing by date of hire is the fair thing to do and NJASAP formed an integration committee made up of pilots from both groups. To show those from NJI how the Union operates the leadership recently invited them to tour the NJASAP office and sit in on EBoard meetings. From all accounts, the NJI pilots found it helpful and informative. I think the idea was for them to share what they had learned about the Union w/their peers. Perhaps those who didn't get the word can ask them for a personal report. Alternatively, NJI pilots can have their own interaction w/ Union leaders on the section of the NJASAP board that has been set aside for NJI pilots. It was provided to them so that they can gain more knowledge of NJASAP and have their individual questions answered promptly by the leadership.

There are legal limits to help the Union can give to non-members, but to me it appears that NJASAP is doing all it can at this point. That said, I encourage the NJI pilots to use their section of the NJASAP board to address their specific concerns. Personal involvement will help ensure a smooth integration and add to one's education regarding Union matters. NJW

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Wolf, what I'm asking is why does NJA want to include NJI only when it appears to benifit them, ie: pilot furlough's, (such as the VSL) and not let them into the union family, in any form at all at this time?????

I honestly cant speak on behalf of the union concerning this specific issue.

However... here are some thoughts.

• If the company furloughs off the VSL they are in fact recognizing the rights of ALL pilots on the VSL to return in proper order to NetJets once things turn around.
• NJI could "furlough" pilots and basically say "addios" with NO recall rights whatsoever (highly unlikely, but legal)
• Without using the VSL, NJI could furlough out of seniority order to defray training costs.
• A VSL furlough could actually help NJI pilots... lets say they need to furlough 15% across the board. Thats ruffly 500 guys on the VSL, thus eliminating around 33 of our guys. if they did 15% each side, it would eliminate more than that.

Just a few things that make you step back and think. The integration needs to happen sooner than later in my opinion. If the groups are to be merged, lets get it over with. This thing is dragging out worse than a College Lit. class.


Wolf

 

[notapilot]

nevermind

 

[netjetwife]

Nota, it was a literal reference to actual housecleaning. I was taught by my squeaky-clean mom that the ceiling, walls, floor order is the most efficient and cleanest when dusting/washing a room. It was used as an analogy to show agreement with the NJ folks who were/are expecting more cuts to come from the managerial side where there appears to be an excess supply. When a company has to cut costs and unneeded workers it does seem logical to start with those who are paid the most--hence the top down analogy.

Likewise, in an economic climate that makes owner satisfaction/retention a priority, it is a valid approach to start cut backs in an area further from their notice rather than areas that can immediately and negatively impact the client's experience.

Edit note: my post was a detailed response to the questions Nota deleted. Perhaps there are cleaning-challenged posters who can use the tip... The debate on where and when to cut has validity so I'll leave my post. NJW

 

[BeeDubya]

If NJA will not allow NJI to be involved in their union until intergration why would they expect NJI to furlough on a VSL along with NJA pilot's????
They should get on with the program of intergration if they want to include NJI in furlough's, (If that happen's)
It appears that the NJA union wants to include NJI only when it's to their advantage???? Am I missing something here????

A few thoughts.

First, the timing of the integration is in the company's hands at this point. The only way to accelerate the process is for the company to complete it. We wanted it completed over 4 years ago.

Second, the Union views furlough as a negotiated benefit (including recall order and deferral rights). The question lingers, what happens to NJI pilots who are laid off upon a recall? Do they get to come back at their old date of hire or bottom of the list? It would seem that if the company recognized the VSL for purposes of furlough, the Union would recognize it for purposes of recall, however, if the company did not utilize the VSL for furlough, the Union may not be inclined to recognize NJI pilots' DOH upon "recall."

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[jenex]

I honestly cant speak on behalf of the union concerning this specific issue.

However... here are some thoughts.

• If the company furloughs off the VSL they are in fact recognizing the rights of ALL pilots on the VSL to return in proper order to NetJets once things turn around.
• NJI could "furlough" pilots and basically say "addios" with NO recall rights whatsoever (highly unlikely, but legal)
• Without using the VSL, NJI could furlough out of seniority order to defray training costs.
• A VSL furlough could actually help NJI pilots... lets say they need to furlough 15% across the board. Thats ruffly 500 guys on the VSL, thus eliminating around 33 of our guys. if they did 15% each side, it would eliminate more than that.

Just a few things that make you step back and think. The integration needs to happen sooner than later in my opinion. If the groups are to be merged, lets get it over with. This thing is dragging out worse than a College Lit. class.


Wolf

Wolf,

Just because NJA wants furloughs to happen via VSL, there is no reason for the company to manage it that way.
If you get terminated(ie furloughed) in a right to work state, you dont have any recall rights.

Then after the furlough and if recalls happpen, they would not go by the VSL.

NJASAP is only looking out for NJA pilots period, as they are required by law to do. Until you are part of the union you could not be represented by them in any sort of recall.

If its not in a contract it doesn't exist, period!

 

[BeeDubya]

Then after the furlough and if recalls happpen, they would not go by the VSL.

NJASAP is only looking out for NJA pilots period, as they are required by law to do. Until you are part of the union you could not be represented by them in any sort of recall.

Sort of. It is correct that NJASAP does not represent the NJI pilots until the company sends the final integration notice. However, the Seniority List is a negotiated benefit. Seniority lists vary from place to place, for example which types of management can stay on the list and for how long. NJASAP and NetJets managment could negotiate for returning NJI pilots after a furlough, if the final integration notice had been sent at that time.

 

[jenex]

Sort of. It is correct that NJASAP does not represent the NJI pilots until the company sends the final integration notice. However, the Seniority List is a negotiated benefit. Seniority lists vary from place to place, for example which types of management can stay on the list and for how long. NJASAP and NetJets managment could negotiate for returning NJI pilots after a furlough, if the final integration notice had been sent at that time.

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

 

[gunfyter]

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

If furloughs occur via the VSL, I think that will make the vsl, The seniority list in the eyes of any arbiter. On recall the vsl will then have to be used. Regardless of when final notification occurs. That's IMHO.

IOW, a furlough using the vsl IS Final Notification for practical purposes. It sets precedent that won't be ignored. Once again IMHO.

 

[netjetwife]

GF, That sounds logical to me and I agree that fairness would prevail. As to notification, the VSL pretty clearly stated the company's intention from the day it was created, IMO. A combined list would serve no purpose otherwise. I think the final notice may be just a formality when it arrives. The actual/mental acceptance will have already happened, for most of the pilots, by that time.

 

[BeeDubya]

BW,
Like I had said, only if its in writing before furlough. The final integration happening before furlough is unlikely IMHO.

I would agree that the final integration occurring before a potential furlough is unlikely. That said, the recall process for laid off NJI pilots would not have to be in writing prior to a furlough, although it would likely need to be in place before a recall.

 

[notapilot]

Nota, it was a literal reference to actual housecleaning. I was taught by my squeaky-clean mom that the ceiling, walls, floor order is the most efficient and cleanest when dusting/washing a room. It was used as an analogy to show agreement with the NJ folks who were/are expecting more cuts to come from the managerial side where there appears to be an excess supply. When a company has to cut costs and unneeded workers it does seem logical to start with those who are paid the most--hence the top down analogy.

Likewise, in an economic climate that makes owner satisfaction/retention a priority, it is a valid approach to start cut backs in an area further from their notice rather than areas that can immediately and negatively impact the client's experience.

Edit note: my post was a detailed response to the questions Nota deleted. Perhaps there are cleaning-challenged posters who can use the tip... The debate on where and when to cut has validity so I'll leave my post. NJW

BS. This not what you meant and my erased message has nothing at all to do with this message you wrote. Like I said you are the worst type of hypocrite. It is starting to make sense why you are igonred at home and have to come on here starving for attention. You might think I am picking on you, but I am really concerned about you. The world is a beautiful place, go out and experience it. In your final days you will look back and realize that Netjets, unions, and FI really don't mean anything. I hope you find a peaceful balance in your life.

 

[jppt2000]

I honestly cant speak on behalf of the union concerning this specific issue.

However... here are some thoughts.

• If the company furloughs off the VSL they are in fact recognizing the rights of ALL pilots on the VSL to return in proper order to NetJets once things turn around.
• NJI could "furlough" pilots and basically say "addios" with NO recall rights whatsoever (highly unlikely, but legal)
• Without using the VSL, NJI could furlough out of seniority order to defray training costs.
• A VSL furlough could actually help NJI pilots... lets say they need to furlough 15% across the board. Thats ruffly 500 guys on the VSL, thus eliminating around 33 of our guys. if they did 15% each side, it would eliminate more than that.

Just a few things that make you step back and think. The integration needs to happen sooner than later in my opinion. If the groups are to be merged, lets get it over with. This thing is dragging out worse than a College Lit. class.


Wolf

Wow,
One of the biggest opponents of this merger, now sees the light.