Avantair thriving in this economic downturn...

[steelersrule74]

Hmm....

Steelersrule, Would you speculate that those top managers have contracts with Avantair? Take the COO Kevin Beitzel for example, he made $50,000 in bonuses last year. He must be an impressive manager who REALLY cares about the welfare of his company. Avantair obviously thinks highly of him.

his numbers did stick out to me, he must be a heck of a COO. again, i'm not going to trash the company or an individual who's not on FI to defend themselves (as far as we know) - but i think bonuses and stock options given to senior management during a time when the economy is in shambles and the crews at avantair are paid a wage that is not as competitive as other fracs is at a minimum in poor taste and may be a red flag as to how they value their employees.

they may really be that good and take that company to the promised land. on the other hand it may be that a select few enrich themselves from the sweat of others. hard to say how it will work out. i sincerely hope for the crews there it does. and while i'm not trying to turn this into a union/non-union post clearly the pilots have no say in the matter. to paraphrase something i've read here.

'it's gonna cost ya'........

 

[fischman]

on the other hand it may be that a select few enrich themselves from the sweat of others.
'it's gonna cost ya'........

That can't happen in today's times!?! It IS reminiscent of the pharohs building the pyramids though isn't it? :erm:

Be careful what you ask for.

 

[netjetwife]

Good analogy, Fisch. If my husband was an Avantair pilot I'd feel that his skill was being exploited when an FO's salary tops out considerably below what an executive's bonus was for the year and the Captains are way behind their industry peers. That's just sooo wrong! Yeah, you know top managers always have a generous contract-- while they take steps to keep the crews from having one. What hypocrisy! Sounds like the kinda place B19 would choose, doesn't it?

Steel, thanks for posting your research; I found it very informative. I agree that it looks like Avantair is being built on the backs of the pilots and their families. NJA folks are good at spotting that based on past experience. In 2004 we fought against a POSTA that offered a 5 yr PIC 69K. Our pilots were also underpaid while they helped to build the company and had they not stood up for themselves who knows how long that unfairness would have lasted.

For the sake of the Avantair pilots, and others in the industry who are trying to raise the bar, I hope those IOUs get paid soon and the Avantair pilots start getting paid like the professionals they are, but unless they stand together and insist on fair compensation I doubt things will change. The huge discrepancy speaks for itself and tells pilots exactly what value Avantair management places on their vital contribution to the success of the company. NJW

 

[HazMat]

The salaries for captains posted is incorrect. Remember before you Netjets folks pound your chest no one has been asked to take a voluntary leave or been furloughed here. There isn't even a sniff of it happening either . I like the fact that I can sleep at night without having to worry about having a job. Further examination would reveal that the salaries for top execs at Avantair falls well short of those at the other fracs. Also consider that most of it is paid in stock options. They are only valuable if the company does well and the stock goes up. I know the fact that Avantair is doing so well and the other fracs are struggling is going to make posts like this happen but lets be careful.

 

[netjetwife]

HM, thanks for letting us know the PIC salary is wrong; can you please give us the correct number? The FO pay was reported accurately then?

Pounding our chests... I don't see it that way. Try empathy and shared insight based on experience. I agree that job security is very important but so is fairness. The stock option issue sheds more light on the subject of pay but it does beg the question--Do the pilots also get stock options to help offset their low wages?

I hate the thought that Avantair might be doing better because the pilots there are working for wages so low that it allows Avantair to undercut the other fracs. It has always been my hope that frac pilots will work together to raise the bar across the industry, ensuring professional compensation and fair work rules for ALL ... rather than the opposite.

To me, the job description and responsibility level appears too similar between the fracs to justify a big discrepancy in pay and/or QOL. If there is a lot of difference between the fracs from a pilot perspective (duties, required hours, responsibilities, etc) I would appreciate an explanation so that I can learn more about the industry and better understand my family's place in it. Thanks guys! NJW

 

[glasspilot]

Do the pilots also get stock options to help offset their low wages?

Umm, I'm standing right here...I can hear you.

We're talking about my pay and you offer that comment? Whatever.

I think Avantair undercuts the other fracs because the Piaggio burns 85 gallons an hour in cruise compared to over 200 gallons in a hawker 800XP. Before ya'll get your panties in a twist I compared the XP because that's how big a plane you need to match our cabin. I know it's faster and longer range and it's pilots are cooler and all that...but for a guy who wants a 5'8" cabin he can burn 85 gal in our plane or 200+ in a hawker.

Maybe, just maybe the plane is why Avantair is undercuting the compitition and it's not my NJW offending salary.

 

[SCT]

NJW, with all due respect, have you ever looked into taking an online macro/ micro economic courses? Maybe an aviation business class? I just think alot of your assumptions about business, earnings, economy of scale, and cost structure, etc are very narrow minded versus real world.

Just wondering-

 

[steelersrule74]

my source for salaries was airlinepilotcentral. if those numbers are incorrect I'd appreciate someone posting the actual pay rates. Also, the links to Forbes indicating some mgt salaries show to me the vast majority of compensation is through salary and bonus, NOT stock options.

 

[brokeflyer]

Well hopefully avantair dont suffer the same fate as Pan Am and USAir through sh1tty management.

those are a good group of pilots over there, hopefully they dont get butt raped.

 

[AftCG182]

I hate the thought that Avantair might be doing better because the pilots there are working for wages so low that it allows Avantair to undercut the other fracs.

NJW, haven't we addressed this point already? To undercut the competition, you have to do the same thing for a cheaper rate. Comparing your Beechjets and (smaller) Citations to our Piaggios is not an apples to apples comparison. Try comparing it on a pound-for-pound basis. You guys just don't have anything that compares to our 12,100lb model of efficiency. Fuel burn? Same story...

Edit to add: And please don't try to stir up the union argument AGAIN. Considering the state of this industry (and the state of the economy as a whole) we're being compensated in a manner that's keeping our company sustainable while keeping us employed. No one is being taken advantage of over here, thank you very much.

 

[HazMat]

Until you guys are ready to post the executive comp packages at NetJets then why compare. Please NJW ask your husband he surely knows how much the execs make at NetJets. Steelersrule74 bonus if paid in options are valued at the cash value at year end so if the stock went up then the bonus could be large if it went down it would be zero. The cash value is what is released publicly on forbes and other websites. Paid for performance not a bad idea. We have a profit sharing plan and the company just starting making profits. Watch us we are turning into the example to follow. It has taken time but we are getting there. For a 6 year old aviation company things are looking pretty damn good. Steelersrule you dont work here why do you care are things that bad where you work? Does the union have to be pushed on everyone?

 

[steelersrule74]

Until you guys are ready to post the executive comp packages at NetJets then why compare. Please NJW ask your husband he surely knows how much the execs make at NetJets. Steelersrule74 bonus if paid in options are valued at the cash value at year end so if the stock went up then the bonus could be large if it went down it would be zero. The cash value is what is released publicly on forbes and other websites. Paid for performance not a bad idea. We have a profit sharing plan and the company just starting making profits. Watch us we are turning into the example to follow. It has taken time but we are getting there. For a 6 year old aviation company things are looking pretty damn good. Steelersrule you dont work here why do you care are things that bad where you work? Does the union have to be pushed on everyone?

I'm certainly no expert at reading these things but it appears your latest SEC filing shows an operating loss of 4.5 million through the first nine months. again, i may be reading the wrong column but i'm not sure how long it will be before profit sharing kicks in. To the extent I care about avantair is simply as one pilot to another who hopes your company succeeds and shares that success equitably with it's employees. also, i'm not pushing the union on you or anyone else. I speak to the benefits I see from union membership and respect the choice each pilot group makes.

 

[Jolimon]

his numbers did stick out to me, he must be a heck of a COO. again, i'm not going to trash the company or an individual who's not on FI to defend themselves (as far as we know) - but i think bonuses and stock options given to senior management during a time when the economy is in shambles and the crews at avantair are paid a wage that is not as competitive as other fracs is at a minimum in poor taste and may be a red flag as to how they value their employees.

they may really be that good and take that company to the promised land. on the other hand it may be that a select few enrich themselves from the sweat of others. hard to say how it will work out. i sincerely hope for the crews there it does.

The fact that not only has Avantair not furloughed any pilots but also turned a profit last quarter speaks to the COO's value. My thoughts go out to those that have been furloughed from the other fractionals, I can't imagine how difficult that must be for their families. From what I can see, the people at Avantair that you are questioning have successfully done everything they can to make sure that the employees here do not have to worry about the security of their jobs.

 

[HazMat]

The fact is we have not had to reduce workforce we stand alone in that. Go ahead and continue to spew whatever crap you want

 

[netjetwife]

NJW, haven't we addressed this point already? Yes, we discussed it briefly but I was unaware of the wages at that time. To undercut the competition, you have to do the same thing for a cheaper rate. Or offer a product close enough to draw customers away from your competitors. Comparing your Beechjets and (smaller) Citations to our Piaggios is not an apples to apples comparison. Agreed, but flying the same route is and apparently that's a comparison that your new clients are looking at. Try comparing it on a pound-for-pound basis. You guys just don't have anything that compares to our 12,100lb model of efficiency. Fuel burn? Same story... The situation would be easier if it was that simple, but all overhead costs, including labor, are looked at when services are priced.

Edit to add: And please don't try to stir up the union argument AGAIN. Considering the state of this industry (and the state of the economy as a whole) we're being compensated in a manner that's keeping our company sustainable while keeping us employed. No one is being taken advantage of over here, thank you very much.

Contrary to the opinion of some, I can separate issues. I see this one as a pay issue. Citation Shares--also non-union--pays pilots more commiserate with their contribution to the company. I think that definitely helps to raise the bar in the industry so clearly a Union isn't always required for a fair salary. Barring a major difference (like hiring mins, for example) I don't think that Avantair pilots should be so far behind their peers. You guys have earned a raise by patiently helping to build the business and it is only fair for management to share the wealth, especially when your company is growing. Best wishes to Avantair families, NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Umm, I'm standing right here...I can hear you.
Obviously, I wanted Avantair pilots to answer the question I posed. I guess I could have asked one of you personally, by name. Sorry...:0 it didn't occur to me at that time. We're talking about my pay and you offer that comment? Whatever. I apologize if you were offended; that was not my intention. Pilot salaries are a common topic here at FI and in the past I certainly pointed out how very low the NJA wages were at that time. I also complain about the FLOPS underpaying the Options pilots. I think frac issues affect all our families; consequently, I'd like to see industry standards for work rules and QOL issues, including compensation.

I think Avantair undercuts the other fracs because the Piaggio burns 85 gallons an hour in cruise compared to over 200 gallons in a hawker 800XP. .... Maybe, just maybe the plane is why Avantair is undercuting the compitition and it's not my NJW offending salary.

It seems that you're misreading my general concern for all frac families and my inherent dislike of unfair situations. I'm not offended by your salary, Glass. :erm: I'm empathetic because my husband used to be underpaid for his skills and I trust his judgment (backed up by his research in business aviation salaries) on what a frac pilot should be paid. Now... if I were an Avantair wife ... I'd be offended. That much is true...

I still haven't heard anyone explain if there's some logical reason for the Avantair pilot wages to be lower than the industry norm. Is there some aviation bias against prop planes... Do you guys work less days? Already receive some other form of additional compensation? Speaking of...

A profit-sharing plan sounds promising. I hope that it works out and helps to close the salary gap. Certainly, that could benefit Avantair pilots and their families while simultaneously assuring all involved that lower wages there weren't having a detrimental affect elsewhere in the industry. I think that would be a win-win situation for all our frac families. Good Luck! NJW

 

[BoilerUP]

Those operating economics far, FAR outweigh any differential in crew compensation...

 

[C425Driver]

I still haven't heard anyone explain if there's some logical reason for the Avantair pilot wages to be lower than the industry norm.

Here it goes with the union drive again.

By "industry norm", you are undoubtably referring to the NJA payscale or something close to it. In another post, you cited CitationShares' wages. All of the other fracs have furloughed pilots or have offered some form of early out package under the threat of furloughs - that's the industry norm right now and for some reason you refuse to see that. The only thing you see is numbers on your husband's payscale and if someone else's numbers don't match up then they are somehow being violated.

Some people have come on here and bashed what our COO makes. In my opinion, he earned it. When his predecessor was shown the door, KB had a lot of work to do - or I should say he had a lot of work to undo. The wasteful spending by the previos COO was costing us dearly. KB came in and reviewed all of the contracts that she had signed with vendors and renegotiated or cancelled almost all of them. This is a project that's still going on over a year later and it's a major contributor in taking us out of the red and into the black. He didn't do that on the backs of the pilots or any other employee group - he did it on good business sense.

I don't believe that pilot wages by themselves caused the furloughs/early outs at the other fracs, but they were defintely contributors. If you tell us that we should be paid "industry norm", then you're telling us that we should be putting pilots and other employees out on the street and putting our company back on a trend of losing money every quarter.

We were profitable for one quarter and our financials for the last quarter and fiscal year should be released soon. This may sound like a crazy idea to you, but maybe we should establish a sustained trend of profitablility before we go to management asking for pay raises for ALL employees, not just the pilots because at our company we all make it happen.

 

[BeeDubya]

I don't believe that pilot wages by themselves caused the furloughs/early outs at the other fracs, but they were defintely contributors.

If you look at what has been happening in the jet fractional industry over the last 18-24 months, you will see that all the fractional companies have had to buy back airplanes from owners leaving their programs. As jet prices fall, even if they sell the repurchased share, it's at a loss. The economic burden of the extra inventory (not to mention lost revenues because flying is down at all the fracs) far outweighs salaries.

Just as an example, (and this is just to illustrate differences in inventory and salary -- both are exaggerated) assume a frac has 400 airplanes and each plane is worth $10M on average. That's $4 Billion in aircraft value. Say that frac has 3,300 pilots who make $200,000 each. That's $660 million annually. Or salaries are 16.5% of aircraft value in this scenario, or total pilot salaries are the equivalent of carrying an extra 66 airplanes (16.5% of the fleet). As you start playing with numbers, it becomes obvioius quickly that reduced flying and extra inventory has a signficantly larger impact on the bottom line and number of pilots needed than does pilot salary.

 

[steelersrule74]

The fact is we have not had to reduce workforce we stand alone in that. Go ahead and continue to spew whatever crap you want

if the numbers and public facts i've 'spewed' are crap - then you should be careful, someone may be squatting over you with their pants down. i'm still hoping someone will post the current payscale. as for opinions the only ones I've shared are - i think your pilots are undervalued and i hope your company enjoys long-term success.

 

[C425Driver]

BD,

Agreed. Like I said, salaries aren't the only factor, but they are a contributor. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of buy backs as our sales team is reporting record sales. Most of our sales are charter cards and Axis membership but we are still selling and growing. A couple of passengers told me that they bought charter cards and will use those until they receive their buyout from their previous frac. At that time they intend to buy a fractional share from us.

If I recall correctly, last quarter we posted a 1.8M profit - not much in the big scheme of things but it's progress in the right direction. Now, if we increase our pilot salaries by 30% to bring them closer to someone's idea of industry norm, then you are talking about increasing our pilot payroll by over 4M. You don't have to be a math major to figure out that the salary increase would cost Avantair too much. Also, if the pilots get a raise the rest of the employees are going to want a raise as well (and rightfully so) whch would be even more devestating to our bottom line. At Avantair in our current situation, salaries can have a significant affect on the bottom line.

 

[fischman]

Some people have come on here and bashed what our COO makes. In my opinion, he earned it. When his predecessor was shown the door, KB had a lot of work to do - or I should say he had a lot of work to undo. The wasteful spending by the previos COO was costing us dearly. KB came in and reviewed all of the contracts that she had signed with vendors and renegotiated or cancelled almost all of them. This is a project that's still going on over a year later and it's a major contributor in taking us out of the red and into the black. He didn't do that on the backs of the pilots or any other employee group - he did it on good business sense.

"Be careful what you ask for."

 

[BeeDubya]

BD,

Agreed. Like I said, salaries aren't the only factor, but they are a contributor. I don't think we're doing a whole lot of buy backs as our sales team is reporting record sales. Most of our sales are charter cards and Axis membership but we are still selling and growing.

First, it's BW... for Brian Ward... However, my middle initial is D... so I'm okay with BD.

Second, I was referring to your post that salaries were "contributing" to the layoffs and NJ's Voluntary Measures -- that high salaries were why the companies were taking the actions each took. My point was that if you look at what is occurring at each of the jet fractionals, salaries, (no matter high or low) are negligible when compared to the other factors -- specifically, increased inventory. In other words, I was talking about the fractionals that had laid off or were facing potential layoffs.

Now, whether higher salaries have a negative effect on Avantair's profits, that depends. If nothing else changed, then yes, it would. If productivity increased or fees were adjusted accordingly, then it may have no negative effect (also dependant on sales patterns). Certainly it's good to be profitable, but other questions should also be asked, what is the company doing with the profits? Is it growing the business? What kind of benefits and bonuses are going to other employees and employee groups?

 

[harley30344]

The company is making money. The people working there seem to be happy. Why are certain people on this forum trying to make them feel guilty or bad about their wages and compensation? If the employees don't want a union then leave them alone. This is exactly what I've spoken about on other forums. NJW, you continuously push the pro-union agenda--have you EVER considered that just maybe that isn't always the answer? If a union works for you great, but don't try to make others feel badly because they don't want to follow your path.

Go ahead flamers--I know someone will take a personal shot simply because I disagree with their philosophy.

 

[C425Driver]

The BD was a shortened reference to BeeDubya, that's all.

I agree with the statements that you are making. My point was countering someone else's view that we should be increasing our salaries to match others in the industry on some principle. If we did that we would be in the red. I'm all for making as much money as I can, but not when it's going to put us back in the red.

And while I agree that there are more significant factors than salaries for other company's layoffs and salaries aren't the only "why" layoffs/early outs were necessary, salary is a contributor - not the one and only reason. I think that dead horse is beaten enough, no?

 

[HazMat]

By your fifth year you are a captain at Avantair and most likely it would occur much sooner than that. So if we are comparing 5 year salaries we are making more since you are still an FO at Netjets. I would imagine the upgrades to captain are going to be way out at the other fractionals we are looking at two years. Can we stop the argument now. Most importantly we are not down sizing and losing our jobs. Something you all refuse to comment on.

 

[netjetwife]

Harley, this is a fair pay issue, not a Union issue as NJI and CS--both non-union--have set their pay at the top of the scale. I have already stated that a Union is not always required for employees to receive the going rate. The point is that there is a big discrepancy in the frac industry that cannot be justified when you look at the job description.

I am fully aware that some pilotgroups have formed Councils to represent their interests in discussions with managers. In the matter of pay, at some fracs that is enough. Clearly it works for the Shares pilots; when NJA pilots got a raise so did they--both times. Thus, when I advocate pilots standing up for themselves to achieve industry standard pay, I am including those who use a Council form of representation. I have posted as such in the past, but some who missed those threads often make the false assumption that I believe a Union is required for fair pay. Those posters, yourself included, are the ones trying to turn a pay discussion into a union vs non-union issue--not me...

 

[netjetwife]

By your fifth year you are a captain at Avantair and most likely it would occur much sooner than that. So if we are comparing 5 year salaries (In the interest of being informed participants, I'd like to see us compare them at all levels.) we are making more since you are still an FO at Netjets. That is something that should be looked at by the NJ pilots. I would imagine the upgrades to captain are going to be way out at the other fractionals we are looking at two years. Can we stop the argument now. Most importantly we are not down sizing and losing our jobs. Something you all refuse to comment on.

I don't see this as an argument and I'm sorry that you do. I view this exchange as helpful information-sharing. As for commenting on the fact that Avantair is not downsizing, I have already done so-- in the beginning of the thread when I congratulated your group on its growth. I see it as bittersweet. While it gives me hope that things aren't as grim for the industry as I had previously thought, it does concern me that the lower payscale at Avantair is a possible factor in their ability to draw new owners from the other fracs. To me, the silver lining in the economic cloud hanging over us would be hearing that Avantair pilots had gotten a raise. I'm disappointed that's not the case--yet. Your future appears promising so congrats on that.

Guys, I do get it that you see yourselves as making an investment in your careers there. I realize that you are proud of Avantair and see yourselves as helping to build the company. Kudos to you all for your hard work and loyalty. I sincerely hope that it all works out because you and your families deserve it to. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way--thus my concern. Life is full of gray areas and there can be a fine line between investing in the future and subsidizing a company that uses lower labor costs to grab market share. For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

 

[glasspilot]

For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

What is the "going rate" for a pilot NetJetWife? I'm serious...please, do tell.

It occurs to me that you make half of what your husband makes. I know other wives that sit around and post on the internet all day that make much less. Perhaps the wives of America should band together and start a union. You all do the same work, shouldn't you all share the same rewards? Maybe, as you suggest, my friends wife is undercutting my wife in order to gain market share.

 

[brokeflyer]

hey njw.....with all respect.

maybe it's time to just leave this one alone. Let's concentrate on other things.

these guys are all grown up and can make up their own minds.