Air France Flight Missing

[Andy Neill]

I thought I saw an earlier post where it said that the plane flew on for a few hours after the initial electrical failure alert came in, but I can't find it. Anyone see that?

Yes I did. Reviewing the posts now, I'm guessing it was ACL65PILOT in post #27 of this thread which is now ".....nevermind"

I suspect he may have initially misinterpreted a statement that this happened a few hours after takeoff or perhaps they had fuel to keep flying for several more hours after the event and understood it to mean the flight continued for several hours after the event. I haven't seen any reference to continued flight from the reports I have been reading or listening to.

 

[PilotswifeII]

Yes, I have not seen anything else that said the plane kept flying either, but I was surprised to see that post.

Nevermind my post as well.

Thanks guys.

 

[Lear70]

It's on the news, looks like the initial elect glitch transmitted near 2200 then one final report around 2215 with the pressurization/other, then gone.

Of course, who knows if they have it right yet... but that seems to be coming from Air France officials.

They're also speculating on a lightning strike in those t-storms knocking out the electrical systems simultaneously with the turbulence and wondering if the backups would come back on in time with an unusual attitude kind of issue from the turbulence...? It'll be enlightening to find out what grounded the plane for an electrical issue recently and whether that could contribute to a slow power transfer to a backup system if a massive electrical surge spiked the entire avionics package.

Wasn't someone saying something about Boeing moving towards FBW in future designs? (yeah, I'm one of those superstitious non-FBW people).

 

[Bronco Buster]

Having flown the airbus, I would like to address a couple of points made above. First of all, the bus is less likely to be hit by lightning than probably any other airliner. Since they used so much composite material and due to the fly by wire setup, they went crazy with the bonding. In fact at NWA we found that the airbuses only took about a third as many lightning hits as our 757s. Also the enginneers kept the key redundant busses as far apart as was physically possible. If you lose your engine generators, then you've got the APU, the RAT, and finally of course your batteries. With no electrical power then you're down to mechanical pitch trim and thrust/differential thrust for control. I was told that the test pilots actually landed the aircraft in this configuration. That all being said, it would appear that a more likely scenario than a lightning strike would be a breakup in severe turbulence. We may never know since there is a very good possibility that the wreckafge will never be recovered.

 

[b707guy]

"The plane "crossed through a thunderous zone with strong turbulence," Air France said. About 14 minutes later, at 11:14 p.m. local time, 0214 GMT (10:14 p.m. EDT Sunday), an automatic message was sent reporting electrical system failure and a loss of cabin pressure. Air France said the message was the last it heard from Flight 447."

The above is quoted from an AP article of two hours ago. What interested me was mention of the "automatic" message. I have no idea what the timeline mentioned is based upon (previous position reports, deviation request, etc), but does the A-330 or any 'bus or other modern type have some sort of last gasp data transmission with loss of major systems, something that doesn't require crew input? If so, it seems like a pretty good idea. Or is this an author taking a little journalistic license with the use of the word "automatic"?

Godspeed to all involved.

 

[NEDude]

Wasn't someone saying something about Boeing moving towards FBW in future designs? (yeah, I'm one of those superstitious non-FBW people).

They moved towards it in 15 years ago in the 777.

FBW has been around in military aircraft for nearly 40 years, and in mass produced civilian aircraft for 20+ years. By todays standards it is a relatively simple technology and is well proven. And yes, the Airbus does have mechanical backup which provides for basic controllablity.

I would be more worried about the new technology being touted in the next generation aircraft like the 787/A350, espescially the durability of the composite material and the laminating process. Metal has been around for centuries and was in use in airplanes for 40+ years before we began to really understand metal fatigue and corrosion thanks to Aloha Airlines. Relatively speaking we dont have clue about the composites.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

Condolences to the families of those affected.

After several years of crossing the pond I can only imagine the lack of options they had. I have been wondering if this maybe another Airbus plane coming apart due to turbulence or aggressive manuvers on the controls. Hopefully the proper agencies get ahold of the FDR and CVR to find out for the families and the industy so this may be avoided in the future.

Again a real sad story already indeed.

 

[jasonwb]

My thoughts and prayers to all involved in this terrible tradgedy......
there are a lot of family and friends of those involved that are having to stare this tradgedy directly in the eye tonight......lets keep them in our prayers to help bring them peace.

Jb

 

[crj567]

From my experience in maintenance ADG's/RAT's are about 50/50 chance of working. It is a system that is never used unless being tested by MX. I've dropped them on mx check flights and some work some don't. I would hate to depend on that thing over the water. God-Bless AF.

I have heard disturbing rumors about the reliability of these things on many aircraft....

-Who knows? Way too early to judge, but I am always concerned about something like a RAT that never gets used....

 

[wmuflyguy]

I was curios about how deep an FDR would transmit its beacon. The NTSB says 14,000' (average depth of the Atlantic is 12,800'), so there is a chance they may never find it and know what happened.

 

[lookin4better]

Even more pathetic that your 34 and still an FO on a RJ. That career plan sounds like its working out well for ya. Karma.....aint it a b%#ch!!!

RIP to all involved and their families

He probly started later in life and changed careers.... you would think he would be more mature than to say such stupid stuff about an accident where hundreds of people died.

 

[727gm]

I've never heard of a rat not deploying on a 320.

The rat's always deploy here on Flightinfo.com.

 

[Monster Buck]

He probly started later in life and changed careers.... you would think he would be more mature than to say such stupid stuff about an accident where hundreds of people died.

Lookin4better...actually this idiot (flyIlikeBoys)has made showing this type of childish and ignorant behavior his daily routine.

 

[OurMoney1]

The above is quoted from an AP article of two hours ago. What interested me was mention of the "automatic" message. I have no idea what the timeline mentioned is based upon (previous position reports, deviation request, etc), but does the A-330 or any 'bus or other modern type have some sort of last gasp data transmission with loss of major systems, something that doesn't require crew input? If so, it seems like a pretty good idea. Or is this an author taking a little journalistic license with the use of the word "automatic"?

Godspeed to all involved.[/QUOTE]

FOQWA data can be uplinked via a satelite system. The FOQWA system can/is specific to the operator. However I would guess that Air France has tailored their software to automatically transmit all ECAMs. Considering they do more over waters in a month than many carriers combined do in a year.... they likely transmit dozens of parameters a flight hour to the frogs back in Paris.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

The rat's always deploy here on Flightinfo.com.

Most late model aircraft-(mid 80's up) the RAT or ADG (air driven gen) automatically deploy when it senses either a complete loss of electrical, hydraulics, or engines and in some case all of the above. There was a problem several years ago with a particular regional airline who shall remain nameless that had several of the mx pins installed in several CRJ's and what was worse they flew around like that for several weeks without anyone noticing mx crews or pilots on walk-arounds!!!

I have no idea what Airbus does as far a RAT or ADG but I do know to fly ETOPS they have to have a backup to the 2 engines and APU to legally fly.

 

[Lear70]

Most late model aircraft-(mid 80's up) the RAT or ADG (air driven gen) automatically deploy when it senses either a complete loss of electrical, hydraulics, or engines and in some case all of the above. There was a problem several years ago with a particular regional airline who shall remain nameless that had several of the mx pins installed in several CRJ's and what was worse they flew around like that for several weeks without anyone noticing mx crews or pilots on walk-arounds!!!

I have no idea what Airbus does as far a RAT or ADG but I do know to fly ETOPS they have to have a backup to the 2 engines and APU to legally fly.

I think 727GM was being facetious...

Could be wrong.

 

[surfnfly]

Most late model aircraft-(mid 80's up) the RAT or ADG (air driven gen) automatically deploy when it senses either a complete loss of electrical, hydraulics, or engines and in some case all of the above. There was a problem several years ago with a particular regional airline who shall remain nameless that had several of the mx pins installed in several CRJ's and what was worse they flew around like that for several weeks without anyone noticing mx crews or pilots on walk-arounds!!!

I have no idea what Airbus does as far a RAT or ADG but I do know to fly ETOPS they have to have a backup to the 2 engines and APU to legally fly.

I was at an unnamed regional and after a heavy check a circuit breaker in the avionics bay was later found to be pulled. It was the one that connected the rat power to the emergency bus thank god that it was never needed. Who knows how many flights that aircraft flew like that. God bless the Air France crew and pax.

 

[poppi]

The A330 ATSU needs AC1 BUS as its power source so if they got an ACARS downlink it would seem to indicate that at least AC1 was powered hence it could mean that at the time the message was downlinked, the electrical system was not as degraded as it would be, for e.g., in an EMER ELEC CONFIG.

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

The One Thing

I am sure no matter what, the entire flight crew did all they could to save it!!!!!!!!! At least give them and their families that much! I am sure that the CREW did not ask to die!

 

[mzaharis]

Here's an interesting video discussion from one of the journalists at Flight International magazine.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-airbus-a330-200-bound-from-rio-to-paris.html