Colgan 3407 NTSB Animation

[Singlecoil]

It seems to me the maneuver he performed when the autopilot kicked off at stick shaker was a ground prox escape maneuver. I can almost hear his sim instructor telling him to, "Pull back until you get stick shaker and add full power." Why he did the wrong thing at that time we will never know? Micro sleep woken up by stick shaker? Who knows.

 

[DiverDriver]

Well, then fine. But I disagree, in fact, I've asked about a pusher and any training in the event it happens, but no one does it. Why? The FAA doesn't require it. Hell, yes, we should not stall. And YES, we should recover at just the onset of a stick shaker. But once the pusher goes off, I don't recall any training ever in the sim, in terms of what to do next. It's pretty much up to you, let the pusher do its thing, lower the nose, and let the airspeed rise. Not a big deal when you're 10,000' or higher. A HUGE deal when you're only 1,000 to 1,500 AGL. At that point, who knows, human instinct might to be pull up to avoid the pusher taking you into the ground. I wouldn't know.

But I think we should all get ready and be prepared for stall profile changes, and training right up to and in the pusher. Our airline already did away with stall profiles. I'm sure others will be changing soon, more to follow.

They weren't at 1,000 AGL!! They actually CLIMBED ABOVE glideslope intercept altitude! There were not standard calls by the FO for vertical speed. Just "uhhh". Are there no calls by the pilot not flying at Colgan during windshear training? Do you not experience a pusher in windshear or unusual attitude training. It's NOT just about stall recovery training. We don't do stall recovery training we recover from slow flight in the sims. But that's not all the required training we get. There are other skills that could have carried the day here.

And we can whine and cry about the company's fatiguing schedules. IF YOU ARE F'N FATIGUED CALL IN FATIGUED! BE THE PROFESSIONAL AND MAKE THE CALL! You want the company having someone walk around giving you alertness quizes all the time? How about we just make the call when necessary? How about pilots call in sick when they're sick instead of expecting someone else to do it for them? How about we all act like adults and take responsibility for our own actions?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Thank you.

If any of us were there, we would be dead too. I for one welcome the finding of the crew being at fault. Would you rather the airframe be suspect and have to go strap on a Q400 for work?
PBR

 

[big shacks]

Every PC or RFT I've taken there were stalls demonstrated on approach or just after takeoff in a turn. Don't other companies do the same?

 

[say again]

The crew stalled the plane, its pilot error. Fatigue may have played a roll, poor training, etc, etc, but they put themselves in the situation that never should've happened in the first place. Ultimately, their actions (or the lack thereof) were the main reason for the loss of many lives. Extremely sad, but very true.

 

[ultrarunner]

...For example a Captain with 5 check ride failures and 100 hours in type paired with a very inexperienced FO should never happen.

What is so ironic is that the PRIA report would show these failures. So in the Colgan case, everyone knew about his substandard performance. The irony is that it was repeated PC failures on the part of the Eagle captain that killed everyone, including himself in RDU that night, that led to PRIA, as that information was never disiminated to AE. AE likey may have never hired him.

In the Colgan case, they knowling had a cheeseball, and still sent him into battle.

Pretty predictable on what the outcome will be....

 

[ASA_Aviator]

If any of us were there, we would be dead too. I for one welcome the finding of the crew being at fault. Would you rather the airframe be suspect and have to go strap on a Q400 for work?
PBR

Depends on what you mean by "if any of us were there." If you mean, "If any of us were there after the stall had begun, and the captain well and truly stalled the plane," then I suppose you are correct. Once the plane was fully stalled and rolled to 100 degrees, it would have been difficult, if not impossible to recover.

I disagree, however, that none of us reading this would have been able to prevent the stall in the first place. That is where the breakdown truly happened, and most of us here who are professional pilots wouldn't have allowed it to get that far, despite what the media tries to say about our lack of professionalism and experience.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen to me, quite the contrary. Anyone could have made this mistake, but on average, most of us would have caught this before it got that bad. That is why there aren't many more accidents like this.

 

[ultrarunner]

...For example a Captain with 5 check ride failures and 100 hours in type paired with a very inexperienced FO should never happen.

What is so ironic is that the PRIA report would show these failures. So in the Colgan case, everyone knew about his substandard performance. The irony is that it was repeated PC failures on the part of the Eagle captain that killed everyone, including himself in RDU that night, that led to PRIA, as that information was never disiminated to AE. AE likey may have never hired him.

In the Colgan case, they knowling had a cheeseball, and still sent him into battle.

Pretty predictable on what the outcome will be....

 

[CKJET]

If any of us were there, we would be dead too. I for one welcome the finding of the crew being at fault. Would you rather the airframe be suspect and have to go strap on a Q400 for work?
PBR

It seems to me the shaker/pusher went off around 130kts and 2300, the plane then climbed to 2500 before going down,

Keep flaps where they are, full power, and just five degrees nose down saves them..... I just cant relate to the yoke in his lap?

 

[mesaba13]

What is amazing to me is how long the thing flew at around 90kts while large rudder/aileron control inputs were applied. One would think it would have dropped off much sooner and entered a spin.

 

[Hawker800]

Training. We do a pretty good job teaching folks how to read glass and push buttons on an FMS. Perhaps teaching basic skills in an aircraft heavier than a C172 might be in order. I mean going up in the aircraft and let the pusher do its thing, do a steep turn, do single engine stuff. The feel is different. After all the simulator, even though a fine training machine, only sits in a room enclosed by four walls. It can only simulate. It isn't the real thing. Just my two cents worth.

 

[OurMoney1]

The flaps up is what really confuses me, with no crew co-ordination either. She didn't even have increasing trends. The situation goes from bad to deadly with the throw of a lever, sad.

I can't help thinking about the families that are living through this hell.

I will always wonder what her picture was that she thought that would help their situation.

 

[BFE]

Well thank god you don't work for the NTSB. Even the NTSB has not released its final report. These are just public hearings, and the final report will come out much later. You, being an emo idiot, don't question the "why" of the overall picture. You said "inexperience" and "lack of attention." Inexperience? Maybe, but then again, how much time did YOU have when you were hired at the Airlink? ANd for "lack of attention"..... WHAT WERE THE CAUSES??? That is what the NTSB will investigate!

How about:
1. Grueling scheduling practices at Colgan
2. Long, tiring day
3. That lond tiring day exacerbated by commuting in.
4. Tiredness that night due to the long day
5. FATIGUE

These are the main issues! So quit crucifying the crew. I don't blame them, it is far to easy to blame the dead. How about blaming the system that failed on them? How about blaming Colgan's sub-standard training program? How about addressing industry wide fatigue and scheduling/rest issues?

Seven, you're stupid if you can't think the whole situation through, as I just described above.

You obviously have no time in a large turbo prop aircraft. At 22:16:10 the condition levers (props) are placed (not called for) to max. This is largest drag on the aircraft, it's like putting on the brakes. Within 17 seconds the aircraft looses 40 knots of airspeed and stalls simply because the power was left as flight idle. This is one of the BASIC flying skills in turbo prop flying.

Quit crucifying the crew? How about stop making excuses for them.

 

[LJ45]

if you watch the animation... I don't think the pusher had anything to do with it, he yanked back on the controls when the sticker shaker went off. The pusher went off as the aircraft was already pitched way up.

absolutely pathetic for both pilots !!!!

 

[flynryan15]

The flaps up is what really confuses me, with no crew co-ordination either. She didn't even have increasing trends. The situation goes from bad to deadly with the throw of a lever, sad.

I can't help thinking about the families that are living through this hell.

I will always wonder what her picture was that she thought that would help their situation.

I am not condoning moving the flaps, but when she did it the airplane was rolling right through 90 degrees. The aircraft then came back to wing level momentarily. From that moment on if the ailerons were not used just rudder and max power applied while maintaining attitude the result would have been a lot different.

Yes her response to the flaps 15 and the shaker was UHHH. However if you notice right before that she had a hand off to the tower. It appears her head was down for a second as he made his calls she looked up as she selected the flaps and all hell started to break loose.

I wonder if the captains I used to fly with before my furlough that made fun of me for saying speed checks before I moved the flap or gear handle would laugh at me now?

 

[Lampshade]

Putting the flaps to zero at 93 kts was the nail in the coffin.

 

[30West]

I would think the training issue is that in a very short time period you had 2 crews stall and airplane! Something is getting missed here is this keeps happening!

The BTV airplane didn't stall.....where did you get 2 from?

 

[Sig]

I am not condoning moving the flaps, but when she did it the airplane was rolling right through 90 degrees. The aircraft then came back to wing level momentarily. From that moment on if the ailerons were not used just rudder and max power applied while maintaining attitude the result would have been a lot different.

Ailerons? Missed it by THAT MUCH, but you're on to something.

Watch the plane and the yoke- serious food for thought about what happens to a wing when a pair of barn doors rotate up from the top at an unimaginably slow speed and off the chart AOA. As the yoke see-saws, they become "what's left of the lift" dumpers vice roll spoilers.

An eye opener, for sure.

 

[Flyer1015]

Putting the flaps to zero at 93 kts was the nail in the coffin.

The nail in the coffin was already before this point.

 

[Flyer1015]

They weren't at 1,000 AGL!!

Yes they were low enough. Cleared to 2,300 MSL, and that's where they were at, and airport elevation is 728' MSL. This means they were approximately 1,500 AGL when all the problems started. A shaker or pusher at that low an altitude is a serious thing, and espeically a pusher when you're only 1,000AGL to 1,500AGL, I don't even want to think what your brain will force you to do.