Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[F/O]

Apparently it is the following procedure:

1) do not add power.
2) pull on the stick pusher as it is trying to push forward.
3) retract flaps.
4) retract gear.

Yes, I feel these guys are being pretty badly hammered in the media. But someone please help me to understand this...

 

[LazyLightnin']

You forgot step 5

 

[LittleDeuce]

NTSB Hearing

The NTSB hearing is on now. They are on a break until 15:20. Very interesting to listen to.

http://www.capitolconnection.gmu.edu/ntsb/live/ntsblive-cc.htm

 

[Fly91]

They just released the transcripts from the FDR.

Looks like they had a couple of real winner pilots on that flight.

The copilot was saying, on the recorder, ((paraphrasing)) "I've never seen ice before, I've never had to deice before, I never want to see ice like this, I never want to make a deicing decision like this, I would be afraid we were going to crash."

The captain failed 3 flight checks before this flight, in recent months.

When will airlines stop hiring women just because they are "women" and cannot truly do the job. And when will they stop keeping crap pilots on the line just becuase the scumbag unions will cause trouble. You fail a flight check, you get one more shot....if you fail again....you're ass is fired for good. Peoples lives are on the line, its not a friggin joke. The airlines have some of the worst pilots in the world, why??? Because of the scumbag unions. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!

What a pathetic industry the airlines are. Its laughable.

 

[Singlecoil]

You are wrong Fly91. She was saying what she was thinking on her first day of groundschool at Colgan. Had you read the CVR rather than just posting what the media thinks it says, you would know that.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The airlines have some of the worst pilots in the world, why??? Because of the scumbag unions. Wonderful!!!!!!!!!

Too bad Colgan wasn't a union airline at the time of this crash or in all of the checkride busts.

Way to make an appropriately backed up statement.

 

[HalinTexas]

Colgan FO:

22:16:26.6
HOT-2
uhhh.

The stick shaker started about a second later. You think she saw something?

 

[Jar Jar]

Colgan FO:

22:16:26.6
HOT-2
uhhh.

The stick shaker started about a second later. You think she saw something?

Sure do. But maybe her mind was still spinning over the past 57 minutes of non-stop conversation. There was literally not 1 minute of silence in the cockpit the whole way to BUF.

 

[HalinTexas]

Sure do. But maybe her mind was still spinning over the past 57 minutes of non-stop conversation. There was literally not 1 minute of silence in the cockpit the whole way to BUF.

I've been in those kind of cockpits. Makes the day go quicker, but can cause problems.

If you look at the transcripts, you'll also notice a 26 second period from "22:15:59.5 CAM [sound similar to decrease in engine power] " to the beginning of the stick shaker.

Does Colgan set a speed bug anywhere for what speed you intend to fly? Or is it just set a Vref+ when it's briefed?

 

[CRJDispatchKid]

Sure do. But maybe her mind was still spinning over the past 57 minutes of non-stop conversation. There was literally not 1 minute of silence in the cockpit the whole way to BUF.

Really a breakdown in CRM. Non-essential chatting has its place on every flight, but this wasn't a spring-time flight in VMC conditions. A little more vigilance should have been paid to the changing conditions, especially after noticing a significant buildup of ice on the aircraft.

 

[Flyer1015]

Apparently it is the following procedure:

1) do not add power.
2) pull on the stick pusher as it is trying to push forward.
3) retract flaps.
4) retract gear.

Yes, I feel these guys are being pretty badly hammered in the media. But someone please help me to understand this...

No it is not.

THESE are their actual stall profiles:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/417477.pdf

He did add power, retract flaps, and gear. The question/problem becomes regarding pitch. YOU weren't there that night, so don't judge. The airline I work at, and Colgan too, train you to the stick shaker for stall recovery. No one ever shows "well, and when the pusher goes off, then do this...." in the sim. No one takes it that far, and Colgan said that the FAA doesn't require it to be taken that far. Now who are you to judge what you would or wouldn't have done once the pusher activated only 1000 feet above the ground.

If pilot error is to blame, it is the training program that should be primarily blamed. Stall profiles at airlines need to be changed. And not to mention, fatiuge and scheduling rules need to be changed, but the FAA will not give a rats as$ when power airline lobbyists use their "pressure."

 

[jhwk0309]

I haven't been following this story. Is the cause anything to do with an Ice Contaminated Tailplane Stall?

 

[T-prop]

I haven't been following this story. Is the cause anything to do with an Ice Contaminated Tailplane Stall?

Nope, however, his recovery technique appears to be a very similar response to one.

Unfortunately, he was in normal stall condition...that they put themselves in. Retracting the flaps immediately after stick pusher is a very bad thing to do... for a normal stall...

Speed was down to the 130's at flaps 5 just before the stick shaker activated. That is approximately the Vref when fully configured for icing conditions.

 

[flyf15]

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

 

[Usual Suspect]

Nope, however, his recovery technique appears to be a very similar response to one.

Unfortunately, he was in normal stall condition...that they put themselves in. Retracting the flaps immediately after stick pusher is a very bad thing to do... for a normal stall...

Speed was down to the 130's at flaps 5 just before the stick shaker activated. That is approximately the Vref when fully configured for icing conditions.

Actually they were at flaps 15:

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]

 

[Thurman Merman]

I've been in those kind of cockpits. Makes the day go quicker, but can cause problems.

If you look at the transcripts, you'll also notice a 26 second period from "22:15:59.5 CAM [sound similar to decrease in engine power] " to the beginning of the stick shaker.

Does Colgan set a speed bug anywhere for what speed you intend to fly? Or is it just set a Vref+ when it's briefed?

As I remember it's Vref and GA. But it has been 7 months.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

And what do they tell you when you pitch up 30 degrees?

 

[Thurman Merman]

A factor not discussed is the stupid "Increase ref speed switch." When in icing conditions and turned on it raises the low speed que about 20 knots hence the necessity for getting the corrected ref speeds for Icing conditions, or just remembering to bumb up your ref speed +15/+20 depending on flap setting. When the shaker occured it was a system manufactured event due to this little switch being moved to the on position. The stall was a result of the sudden pitch up. When the shaker occured there was still plenty of flying speed.

 

[LazyLightnin']

A factor not discussed is the stupid "Increase ref speed switch." When in icing conditions and turned on it raises the low speed que about 20 knots hence the necessity for getting the corrected ref speeds for Icing conditions, or just remembering to bumb up your ref speed +15/+20 depending on flap setting. When the shaker occured it was a system manufactured event due to this little switch being moved to the on position. The stall was a result of the sudden pitch up. When the shaker occured there was still plenty of flying speed.

So if the low speed que goes up there is still a visual indication, right? You'd still just keep the airspeed out of the red?

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Have to agree with flyf15, the current protocol demands that you not lose altitude during stall recovery, which requires you to pull the stick back to recover from a stall! Is this ATP PTS? If so, then the blame lies with the FAA. But of course, this whole thing will be blamed on "nonessential communications below 10,000."