SWA Pilot union gives away flying!

[PCL_128]

You guys got no RJs, a raise and are bitching? Seriously?

I need to introduce you to some of my friends over at US Air.

They have every right to be "bitching." Scope is everything. Giving away the flying that is their one true opportunity at significant growth over the coming years would be a very bad move. What good is $220/hr if your job is outsourced to a Mexican pilot?

 

[PCL_128]

What you have to look at is the total package.

Sounds very reminiscent of DAL and UAL pilots who were looking at $320/hr and "only" had to give up some scope. "It's only 57 70-seaters. What can it hurt?" Over 50% of DAL block hours are now flown by replacement jets piloted by pilots not on their seniority list. Don't fall for the same trap. Scope is everything.

 

[Beechball]

Voting absolutely freakin'....NO!!!!

There is no reason why we can't do the flying. And the company/union are saying that the Canadians are loyal to their airlines???!!! Give me a break, where do a lot of our passengers come from in Buffalo!!! A cheaper ticket is a cheaper ticket...doesn't matter what country you're from.

Codeshare language sucks. 2% raise is b.s. FO's will be sold out like the age 65 thing. Oh, and if your a lance captain and aren't going to be in the new cut off margin by the end of the year....you're out of luck. What happened to THAT protection?

NO VOTE all the way for me.:angryfire

 

[StopNTSing]

Ah...hubris. Bitching about making $400/hour.

I really, truly want to bring some of you SWA guys over to my furloughed friend's house.

RJs and stupid management cost them their jobs and you guys don't even recognize how good you have it, if you actually killed RJs dead.

You're starting to look like United in 2000, or Pan Am in 1984.

This is a perfect example of why we pilots are our own worst enemies! Here we are trying to 'raise the bar' and now suddenly we're all full of hubris. What ever happened to 'Defending The Profession?" Yes, I know things suck for a lot of people in this crazy business right now, but SWA is still a healthy company. We pilots finally have an opportunity to overhaul the contract we've been working under for 14 years, plus the company has rasied the ugly specter of codesharing. Forgive me if some of us aren't willing to readily accept the company's first offer.:angryfire

 

[StopNTSing]

What you have to look at is the total package.

Yep, spoken like a true four-digit type. Actually, for those of us with a lot of years left with this company, you don't need to look past Section 1. Afterall, that's what Carl always said: If we don't have controls on codeshare, nothing else matters. From what I've read in Section 1 so far, our 'controls' have no teeth. Very disappointing.

P.S. Mach 80, did you happen to see that our Flight Attendants got 3% raises in their TA?

 

[Capn Butthead]

For what its worth I think Im voting no.

I didnt think I would but I have to. I luv this place but I want to do the flying for it! Ive been thru this before and have been on strike for 89 days before. It sucked but It had to be done. I dont think that will happen here but we have to stand up for keeping our flying ours.

First of all....as for the pay raises I honestly dont think we can do much better. Look around us. IF we go to arbitration we will get pay cuts.

With that being said.....I dont like the elitt changes and other QOL changes. We gave up to much here! There are some positive changes in other things, but the negatives out weigh the positives.

As for scope......I cant agree to outsource all of our intl flying. There are to many places we can go in our planes to connect to other airlines.

I didnt think I would do it, but im going to vote no. I got screwed with age 65 so im sure as hell not going to get screwed by codeshare. I dont want to be a fo for 14 years......im already pissing captains off now!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys and gals,
Any thoughts on limiting this discussion to our SWAPA forum? This I think would be a more appropriate venue.

NO. What you guys do here, effects all of us....

In the realm of the profession.... your TA is a "public" issue....

 

[bmxandjets]

pardon my ignorance...

but, isn't QOL with scheduling, and NO codeshare the 2 most distinguishable attributes about SWA..(besides the culture)? SWA was never really the industry leader in pay (until recently), but they were always the leader in QOL and only having SWA guys fly SWA tails...

i'd hate to see that change....especially over a 2% raise and some increase in 401k matching...

just my $0.02....i don't have a vote in this fight....yet.

 

[firstthird]

It does affect first year pay but not the basic rate.

It severely limits the ability of a first year pilot to give away/dump his line and pick up extra flying at 2nd year rates. Right now, if a guy is able to get rid of his trips (through ELITT or TTGA) any flying he picks up from the company through open time is paid at 2nd year rates. This contract says that only flying above his original line total (let's call it 90 trips) will be paid at 2nd year rates. A big hit, especially for military guys that drop a trip a month and then might try to pick up a turn or two day at 2nd year rates, no more (if this TA passes).

 

[bmxandjets]

It does affect first year pay but not the basic rate.

It severely limits the ability of a first year pilot to give away/dump his line and pick up extra flying at 2nd year rates. Right now, if a guy is able to get rid of his trips (through ELITT or TTGA) any flying he picks up from the company through open time is paid at 2nd year rates. This contract says that only flying above his original line total (let's call it 90 trips) will be paid at 2nd year rates. A big hit, especially for military guys that drop a trip a month and then might try to pick up a turn or two day at 2nd year rates, no more (if this TA passes).

i bet a mgmt accounting nerd already calculated that by doing this....they will actually be paying less in pilot salaries under the new "pay increased" contract, then they are now...

 

[Beechball]

NO. What you guys do here, effects all of us....

In the realm of the profession.... your TA is a "public" issue....

AGREED!! Plus it allows people who are looking to work here to see how it really is and what we're turning into. I just hope we don't turn into another "typical" airline run by bean counters. Been there, done that. It's all smoke and mirrors.....smoke and mirrors and then "POOF" your sold and/or gone.

 

[Daddy]

This thread is mistitled...a more accurate statement would be "SWA union gives away farm!"...please make a note of it

 

[jhill]

We have to many Koolies on the property. It really is sad. They dont see the forest for the trees. I will be voting no but this turd will pass by 70% or more. Our uke: NC is a bunch of IDIOTS. The Mechanice, Rampers and I am sure the FA's all got a better raise then us. Our IDIOT NC started with COLA and went down fron there. Brilliant!! Less then COLA to give away our flying. But hey look at that huge retro we will be getting.uke:

They might be idiots but you're illiterate. I don't even know what a mechanice is. Is it an especially sweet mechanic?. Are you going to tell us what happened after all those raises?

 

[relief tube]

Ah...hubris. Bitching about making $400/hour........you guys don't even recognize how good you have it.....You're starting to look like United in 2000, or Pan Am in 1984.

Now I'm not a big SWA defender, but I don't think the no votes are whining, they're just trying to adamately defend their QOL. They don't touch a single international city and now they got two farm operations. I'd be pissed too. They're just trying to keep from happening what happened to every legacy, so they don't suffer the same fate.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

It does affect first year pay but not the basic rate.

It severely limits the ability of a first year pilot to give away/dump his line and pick up extra flying at 2nd year rates. Right now, if a guy is able to get rid of his trips (through ELITT or TTGA) any flying he picks up from the company through open time is paid at 2nd year rates. This contract says that only flying above his original line total (let's call it 90 trips) will be paid at 2nd year rates. A big hit, especially for military guys that drop a trip a month and then might try to pick up a turn or two day at 2nd year rates, no more (if this TA passes).

If you talk to anyone involved in the original negotiation of this (on either side) they will tell you that this was the original intent of this part of the contract. If you fly extra, you get more (higher rate) pay, period.

 

[murano]

Guys and gals,
Any thoughts on limiting this discussion to our SWAPA forum? This I think would be a more appropriate venue.

Absolutely not! We need all the kernals out there flying at other airlines reading up on this stuff so that they can call their kernal buddies at SWA and tell them to vote no in this outsourcing codeshare extravaganza!

 

[Flying the Line]

Here's a story from Dallas Newspaper. It is a summary of changes. P.S. I don't like reserve daily order going seniroity based.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/03/southwest-pledges-to-grow-airl.html

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

My 0.02 from 20 years of watching scope work.

If the company puts ANY provision in their demands that permits ANYTHING, you can bet they will use it. It's there for a REASON.

Contract allow %6 outsourcing? You bet they will use every last bit, and then some. They'll go over the limit saying it's a "grey area", you'll grieve it, and they'll get a spank on the wrist and continue right on doing it.

By allowing outsourcing, you guys are scoping yourselves into a box, no different than if Great Lakes got in their contract "GL Pilot's will perform all turboprop flying for XXX". That would be a great thing if you don't want any growth and want to limit yourselves to a specific kind of flying.

By allowing outsourcing, you are forgoing all that growth. I can see that if you're a CA at SWA, you're already on the biggest piece of equipment you'd ever fly, so what difference does growth make? By allowing this, you are guarenteeing that will be true, plus hosing every FO on the property.

Good luck guys....

Nu

 

[GuppyWN]

Here's a story from Dallas Newspaper. It is a summary of changes. P.S. I don't like reserve daily order going seniroity based.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/03/southwest-pledges-to-grow-airl.html

What the Dallas News doesn't tell you is that if WN buys just 27 jets then all codeshare restrictions are lifted and they are free to have their way with us.

Also.

The company agreed to "no RJ's" right? Well they are off the hook if they buy an RJ carrier.

Also.

Trip trading will be SEVERELY restricted.

Also.

All lance captains will be capped at 9 days of captain flying per month.

Also.

Also.

Also.

It is so much worse than I originally thought.

Gup

 

[Daddy]

Gup,
You had me at hello

 

[DH2WN]

I think some of the posters are leaving out the fact that there is NO DOMESTIC CODE SHARE in the TA. Can you imagine? That is significant. No other major U.S. airline has that. Good for the SWAPA negotiators. Most of the other airline pilot groups would kill to have that. Domestic code share has been the thing that has really hurt the major airline pilots.

There are raises, retro, improvements to scheduling issues, improvements in 401K, and a mandated number of aircraft (net gain) by certain dates. Additionaly there is limitation on trans-border code sharing....6% of ASMs flown by SWA.

To say "all future flying" is going to be farmed out is a stretch of huge proportions and nothing more than fear mongering.

In these times, what the SWAPA negotiating committee accomplished is significant. There is a small, albiet very vocal group of pilots who will complain and totally focus on one negative issue and ignore the big picture. It's called negotiations and you don't get 100%of what you want. Most of the SWA pilots understand this and view this TA as a fair one. The so called "silent majority" who don't get on internet forums and constantly whine, will cause this TA to pass, as it should.

Clearly you are in the left seat with decent seniority. Worries about your options, eh?

Voting no....If you think the silent majority is voting yes then you need to look at the posting numbers on the SWAPA board. Many of the vocal folks have single digit postings over there.

 

[737tanker]

The company agreed to "no RJ's" right? Well they are off the hook if they buy an RJ carrier.

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

 

[DH2WN]

......im already pissing captains off now!

Join the crowd. I just told my first jack ass to go f-himself. As you might guess he's an Air Farce colonel who still wears the hat.

Best part is he stormed into the Chiefs office after the trip and was laughed at. loved it!!

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

 

[Daddy]

DH2WN,
Nice work man...dont it feel good?

 

[bmxandjets]

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

thanks bro.. i'm just a poolie...but i wanna work at the SWA i interviewed at.. even if it means i sit on the sidelines a little longer.. mo' money is great...but not at the sake of changing the company. imho..

 

[firstthird]

If you talk to anyone involved in the original negotiation of this (on either side) they will tell you that this was the original intent of this part of the contract. If you fly extra, you get more (higher rate) pay, period.

yes, and all open time was going to be rigged, until it wasn't. the precedent and current usage pays 2nd year pay for ANY flying a first year guy got from the company. I can see that the company wanted to stop it, just disappointed that the NC sold the new hires down the river. this contract is yet another 4 digit guy contract. lots of new seniority and restrictions (see lance program) that wasn't there before. isn't sitting on the top 5 more years enough, they need to scarf up all available open time now too.

short version, original intent doesn't mean jack. this was ONE place where we got it better than the company expected versus the multitude where we took it in the shorts. I think I flew maybe 2 days at 2nd year rates my first year, if even that. won't affect me, just think it is crappy.

 

[GuppyWN]

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

 

[instructordude]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled.

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

 

[MILPILOT17]

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

No it's NOT!!!

 

[737tanker]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

Gary doesn't have to buy an RJ carrier to buy RJs and park the 737s, just like there is nothing stopping him from buying 777s and parking the 737s. What I was saying is that he can't buy an RJ carrier and set it up to codeshare with SWA like Eagle does with American.
As for trusting Gary it doesn't matter if I do or don't because the day after SWAPA signs this, or any, agreement the SWA BOD could fire Gary and put a guy like Frank Lorenzo in his place. That is why contracts shouldn't be about trust, but about iron-clad wording.