SWA Pilot union gives away flying!

[murano]

Guys and gals,
Any thoughts on limiting this discussion to our SWAPA forum? This I think would be a more appropriate venue.

Absolutely not! We need all the kernals out there flying at other airlines reading up on this stuff so that they can call their kernal buddies at SWA and tell them to vote no in this outsourcing codeshare extravaganza!

 

[Flying the Line]

Here's a story from Dallas Newspaper. It is a summary of changes. P.S. I don't like reserve daily order going seniroity based.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/03/southwest-pledges-to-grow-airl.html

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

My 0.02 from 20 years of watching scope work.

If the company puts ANY provision in their demands that permits ANYTHING, you can bet they will use it. It's there for a REASON.

Contract allow %6 outsourcing? You bet they will use every last bit, and then some. They'll go over the limit saying it's a "grey area", you'll grieve it, and they'll get a spank on the wrist and continue right on doing it.

By allowing outsourcing, you guys are scoping yourselves into a box, no different than if Great Lakes got in their contract "GL Pilot's will perform all turboprop flying for XXX". That would be a great thing if you don't want any growth and want to limit yourselves to a specific kind of flying.

By allowing outsourcing, you are forgoing all that growth. I can see that if you're a CA at SWA, you're already on the biggest piece of equipment you'd ever fly, so what difference does growth make? By allowing this, you are guarenteeing that will be true, plus hosing every FO on the property.

Good luck guys....

Nu

 

[GuppyWN]

Here's a story from Dallas Newspaper. It is a summary of changes. P.S. I don't like reserve daily order going seniroity based.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/03/southwest-pledges-to-grow-airl.html

What the Dallas News doesn't tell you is that if WN buys just 27 jets then all codeshare restrictions are lifted and they are free to have their way with us.

Also.

The company agreed to "no RJ's" right? Well they are off the hook if they buy an RJ carrier.

Also.

Trip trading will be SEVERELY restricted.

Also.

All lance captains will be capped at 9 days of captain flying per month.

Also.

Also.

Also.

It is so much worse than I originally thought.

Gup

 

[Daddy]

Gup,
You had me at hello

 

[DH2WN]

I think some of the posters are leaving out the fact that there is NO DOMESTIC CODE SHARE in the TA. Can you imagine? That is significant. No other major U.S. airline has that. Good for the SWAPA negotiators. Most of the other airline pilot groups would kill to have that. Domestic code share has been the thing that has really hurt the major airline pilots.

There are raises, retro, improvements to scheduling issues, improvements in 401K, and a mandated number of aircraft (net gain) by certain dates. Additionaly there is limitation on trans-border code sharing....6% of ASMs flown by SWA.

To say "all future flying" is going to be farmed out is a stretch of huge proportions and nothing more than fear mongering.

In these times, what the SWAPA negotiating committee accomplished is significant. There is a small, albiet very vocal group of pilots who will complain and totally focus on one negative issue and ignore the big picture. It's called negotiations and you don't get 100%of what you want. Most of the SWA pilots understand this and view this TA as a fair one. The so called "silent majority" who don't get on internet forums and constantly whine, will cause this TA to pass, as it should.

Clearly you are in the left seat with decent seniority. Worries about your options, eh?

Voting no....If you think the silent majority is voting yes then you need to look at the posting numbers on the SWAPA board. Many of the vocal folks have single digit postings over there.

 

[737tanker]

The company agreed to "no RJ's" right? Well they are off the hook if they buy an RJ carrier.

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

 

[DH2WN]

......im already pissing captains off now!

Join the crowd. I just told my first jack ass to go f-himself. As you might guess he's an Air Farce colonel who still wears the hat.

Best part is he stormed into the Chiefs office after the trip and was laughed at. loved it!!

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

 

[Daddy]

DH2WN,
Nice work man...dont it feel good?

 

[bmxandjets]

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

thanks bro.. i'm just a poolie...but i wanna work at the SWA i interviewed at.. even if it means i sit on the sidelines a little longer.. mo' money is great...but not at the sake of changing the company. imho..

 

[firstthird]

If you talk to anyone involved in the original negotiation of this (on either side) they will tell you that this was the original intent of this part of the contract. If you fly extra, you get more (higher rate) pay, period.

yes, and all open time was going to be rigged, until it wasn't. the precedent and current usage pays 2nd year pay for ANY flying a first year guy got from the company. I can see that the company wanted to stop it, just disappointed that the NC sold the new hires down the river. this contract is yet another 4 digit guy contract. lots of new seniority and restrictions (see lance program) that wasn't there before. isn't sitting on the top 5 more years enough, they need to scarf up all available open time now too.

short version, original intent doesn't mean jack. this was ONE place where we got it better than the company expected versus the multitude where we took it in the shorts. I think I flew maybe 2 days at 2nd year rates my first year, if even that. won't affect me, just think it is crappy.

 

[GuppyWN]

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

 

[instructordude]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled.

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

 

[MILPILOT17]

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

No it's NOT!!!

 

[737tanker]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

Gary doesn't have to buy an RJ carrier to buy RJs and park the 737s, just like there is nothing stopping him from buying 777s and parking the 737s. What I was saying is that he can't buy an RJ carrier and set it up to codeshare with SWA like Eagle does with American.
As for trusting Gary it doesn't matter if I do or don't because the day after SWAPA signs this, or any, agreement the SWA BOD could fire Gary and put a guy like Frank Lorenzo in his place. That is why contracts shouldn't be about trust, but about iron-clad wording.