SWA Pilot union gives away flying!

[DH2WN]

I think some of the posters are leaving out the fact that there is NO DOMESTIC CODE SHARE in the TA. Can you imagine? That is significant. No other major U.S. airline has that. Good for the SWAPA negotiators. Most of the other airline pilot groups would kill to have that. Domestic code share has been the thing that has really hurt the major airline pilots.

There are raises, retro, improvements to scheduling issues, improvements in 401K, and a mandated number of aircraft (net gain) by certain dates. Additionaly there is limitation on trans-border code sharing....6% of ASMs flown by SWA.

To say "all future flying" is going to be farmed out is a stretch of huge proportions and nothing more than fear mongering.

In these times, what the SWAPA negotiating committee accomplished is significant. There is a small, albiet very vocal group of pilots who will complain and totally focus on one negative issue and ignore the big picture. It's called negotiations and you don't get 100%of what you want. Most of the SWA pilots understand this and view this TA as a fair one. The so called "silent majority" who don't get on internet forums and constantly whine, will cause this TA to pass, as it should.

Clearly you are in the left seat with decent seniority. Worries about your options, eh?

Voting no....If you think the silent majority is voting yes then you need to look at the posting numbers on the SWAPA board. Many of the vocal folks have single digit postings over there.

 

[737tanker]

The company agreed to "no RJ's" right? Well they are off the hook if they buy an RJ carrier.

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

 

[DH2WN]

......im already pissing captains off now!

Join the crowd. I just told my first jack ass to go f-himself. As you might guess he's an Air Farce colonel who still wears the hat.

Best part is he stormed into the Chiefs office after the trip and was laughed at. loved it!!

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

 

[Daddy]

DH2WN,
Nice work man...dont it feel good?

 

[bmxandjets]

Vote No because it's the right thing to do.....

thanks bro.. i'm just a poolie...but i wanna work at the SWA i interviewed at.. even if it means i sit on the sidelines a little longer.. mo' money is great...but not at the sake of changing the company. imho..

 

[firstthird]

If you talk to anyone involved in the original negotiation of this (on either side) they will tell you that this was the original intent of this part of the contract. If you fly extra, you get more (higher rate) pay, period.

yes, and all open time was going to be rigged, until it wasn't. the precedent and current usage pays 2nd year pay for ANY flying a first year guy got from the company. I can see that the company wanted to stop it, just disappointed that the NC sold the new hires down the river. this contract is yet another 4 digit guy contract. lots of new seniority and restrictions (see lance program) that wasn't there before. isn't sitting on the top 5 more years enough, they need to scarf up all available open time now too.

short version, original intent doesn't mean jack. this was ONE place where we got it better than the company expected versus the multitude where we took it in the shorts. I think I flew maybe 2 days at 2nd year rates my first year, if even that. won't affect me, just think it is crappy.

 

[GuppyWN]

There are a lot of things about this TA that I don't like but don't get confused over the RJ issue. If SWA does by an RJ carrier then that carrier is owned by SWA and under the scope language those RJs are to be flown by pilots on the SWA seniority list.
However what is causing the confusion is what happens if SWA buys an airline that already codeshares with an RJ carrier. In that instance the codeshare would stay but only on the routes and numbers that were being flown before SWA bought that airline. No large impact if SWA bought Frontier, but HUGE if SWA bought UAL.

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

 

[instructordude]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled.

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

 

[MILPILOT17]

I have a lot of friends currently flying RJ's and in school to become RJ drivers who are salivating at the chance to fly the Southwest banner. Its going to happen sooner or later.

No it's NOT!!!

 

[737tanker]

With all due respect sir let me explain.

If SWA buys an RJ carrier then those pilots will become SWA pilots who will be integrated, not stapled. There is NOTHING to prevent SWA from then buying 500 more RJ's and parking the 737. Then we'll all be RJ pilots with RJ payscales.

Do you trust Gary Kelly? Do you trust him enough to NOT get it in writing?

I don't,
Gup

Gary doesn't have to buy an RJ carrier to buy RJs and park the 737s, just like there is nothing stopping him from buying 777s and parking the 737s. What I was saying is that he can't buy an RJ carrier and set it up to codeshare with SWA like Eagle does with American.
As for trusting Gary it doesn't matter if I do or don't because the day after SWAPA signs this, or any, agreement the SWA BOD could fire Gary and put a guy like Frank Lorenzo in his place. That is why contracts shouldn't be about trust, but about iron-clad wording.

 

[airlinepilot]

I originally thought that some of the post on this thread were a little harsh. Howevers, after I read the TA I think the boys gave way too much away. There is no way I can vote for it and I hope we send it back to them.

 

[fiel12]

I originally thought that some of the post on this thread were a little harsh. However, after I read the TA I think the boys gave way too much away. There is no way I can vote for it and I hope we send it back to them.

Too much leniency in code share. I will also vote NO. Unfortunately, we'll be in the minority.

 

[Whataburger]

i heard that this new TA reduces first year pay. Does anyone have the specifics?

Thanks from a poolie in waiting...

It doesn't "reduce" 1st yr FO pay, you just have to work a bit harder to get 2nd yr pay as a new guy. The company is trying to make it harder for the guys, "tournament players," who exploit loop holes in the current contract.

As a new guy:

Now - If you pick up ANY flying from the company, it gets paid at 2nd yr rates vs. 1st year.

When the TA passes - You get 2nd year pay ONLY when you pick up flying from the company that exceeds your original line TFP.

When TA passes:

Rates as of 9/1/9

1st yr - $48.71
2nd yr - $82.18

PS. I will be voting NO due to loose codeshare language, but it'll pass.

 

[vixin]

Jhill you duma55. If you noticed the e and s keys are at close proximity, thus causing a typo. If you were are smart as you think you are maybe you could have figured that out. What a moron! Sorry I fly planes and I am not an office assistant. Get a life bud.

 

[Cobra17]

Codeshare, severely restricted ELITT, killing the Lance program, pay cut (in real terms); does anyone see this TA as an improvement over the current agreement. If it passes, it will be much more divisive than Age 65. It not only needs to be voted down, it needs to be voted down by a large majority.

 

[waveflyer]

can i rail on how the tradition of 1st year pay decreases every airlines leverage. SWA's 2nd year pay rate for all flying will reduce the amount a 1st year FO will make- which will make competition for labor among airlines that much more scarce- that's something we don't want. We want guys to bail to swa when our guys are raping our companies. This will make the financial decision to do that- that much harder.
1st year pay is way more than just 1st year pay. Very few of us will experience it just once. Everyone needs to recognize this. It needs to be a livable wage- don't mind working for it- but it needs to be good.
SWA was the one place that did well in this area. Sad to see that go.

 

[328dude]

can i rail on how the tradition of 1st year pay decreases every airlines leverage. SWA's 2nd year pay rate for all flying will reduce the amount a 1st year FO will make- which will make competition for labor among airlines that much more scarce- that's something we don't want. We want guys to bail to swa when our guys are raping our companies. This will make the financial decision to do that- that much harder.
1st year pay is way more than just 1st year pay. Very few of us will experience it just once. Everyone needs to recognize this. It needs to be a livable wage- don't mind working for it- but it needs to be good.
SWA was the one place that did well in this area. Sad to see that go.

Good point, although the pay rate did increase for the first year guys, what's gone is the ability to pick up extra flying and get second year rates for it and push your income through the roof. Instead of 60+grand to start as a new-hire, the days of 90+ grand new hires for their first year are gone. The new rate listed above is per trip. I forgot the conversion to make it per hour. $58?

 

[The Victors]

Wow we're spoiled here at swa. I think some of you guys need to take a deep breath and look around for a momment. What ever happened to being THANKFUL to have a good job, especially in the current enviroment? Is this TA perfect? No. Is it probably the best we can do right now? yes? maybe? One thing I can tell you is voting this down will change things only for the worse. GK is committed to this codeshare crap. Nothing will change his mind. He is to scared to let us attempt it. That sucks, but it's a fact, and he's the boss. The company will not come back to the table to "make things right" and we will end up in the hands of a judge. How do you think that will turn out?? Maybe this is good enough for now and we can try again in 2 years when the industry isn't in the crapper. btw, I'm a FO and this is screwing my career too. I expected to upgrade in 6ish years and 4 more years in the right seat is depressing, but things change.
p.s. "starving lance captains"?? are you kidding me? 200K is starving?? If you are a lance captain and have a life dependent on that parttime captain salary then you're a idiot. I personally dont like the program and will be happy to see it reduced.

 

[airlinepilot]

If you vote this TA in then you will have alot longer than 4 years from now to upgrade. With all the loop holes in the TA GK will have code share that keeps you from the left seat. If he can do it, he will. This may be our last real chance to insure "you buy them, we fly them". VOTE NO

 

[Herkdrv]

Wow we're spoiled here at swa. I think some of you guys need to take a deep breath and look around for a momment. What ever happened to being THANKFUL to have a good job, especially in the current enviroment? Is this TA perfect? No. Is it probably the best we can do right now? yes? maybe? One thing I can tell you is voting this down will change things only for the worse. GK is committed to this codeshare crap. Nothing will change his mind. He is to scared to let us attempt it. That sucks, but it's a fact, and he's the boss. The company will not come back to the table to "make things right" and we will end up in the hands of a judge. How do you think that will turn out?? Maybe this is good enough for now and we can try again in 2 years when the industry isn't in the crapper. btw, I'm a FO and this is screwing my career too. I expected to upgrade in 6ish years and 4 more years in the right seat is depressing, but things change.
p.s. "starving lance captains"?? are you kidding me? 200K is starving?? If you are a lance captain and have a life dependent on that parttime captain salary then you're a idiot. I personally dont like the program and will be happy to see it reduced.

Could we PLEASE stop spreading this misinformation? If we turn this T/A down all that happens is we go back to negotiations. If and only if we fail to reach an agreement a mediator is brought in to see if he can help both sides resolve their differences. Their recommendations are NOT binding! Oh and BTW every single employee group that has turned down their initial offers have gotten improvements from subsequent offers.