Midwest Captain Writes About BUF Colgan Crash

[SLUF4]

This is getting to be a little ridiculous. Anybody can make a mistake-doesn't matter if you have 1 hour or 20,000 hours. I'm quite certain the letter writer has made a few in his glorious career. Oscar Wilde said that experience is the simply the name we give to our mistakes. At what point do you become "experienced"? I believe there is no definitive point-we all learn something every trip, every time we have a simulator ride, etc... If you have stopped learning it's time to move on. There is a book I read a long time ago called the killing zone that describes the amount of accidents pilots have when they are between 50 and 350 hours of time. This is the most dangerous period that has any data associated with it. Most airline pilots-even at regionals have surpassed this level. As for keeping safe, all we can do is learn from the mistakes of others and ourselves. Yes, the pay is not what it once was, but that should never make us sacrifice safety.

 

[texman]

I flew in the fractional world, And had a couple of retired airline guys try to kill me. But they had a lot of experience. So I bowed to them.Lol. I think keeping each other out of trouble no matter if you have 500 hrs or 30,000 hrs is key. back each other up, and if you are a young Fo don't hesitate to say something if the captain isn't aware of a safety related issue during flight. He or she will respect you a lot more. We all learn as we go along. So the question is Mr. Midwest pilot, did you start this job as a 30,000 hour pilot? Or when you applied to your first big job, you said "I have a lot of experience! I watched TOP GUN a lot." Mmmmmmm sounds like to me with your 25 years of flying that is when TOP GUN was out or was it Iron Eagle?

 

[enigma]

Captain Kaley really should have left out his opinion that the accident might end up being labeled pilot error.



On the broader topic if pilot experience, the one thing most of you are missing is that most of us who happen to be older than 40 and civilian trained DID start out with NO experience, but we were NOT flying paying passengers in scheduled service until we HAD experience.

My generation of civilians and most generations preceding mine spent years in the lower ranks before being hired into the cockpit of an airliner. Whether that airliner was a Piper Navajo, a Beech 99, a Banderante, a Twin Otter, a Metro, or else - that airliner was nothing more than a turbine powered version of the airplane we were already flying. The business allowed us to build experience on top of experience, to add technology a little bit at a time. The system in place today denies a beginning pilot the opportunity to build his experience layer upon layer.

Most of my college classmates worked as CFI's for thousands of hours. If we were lucky, we managed to move from there to a beat up Baron or Navajo flying film or checks at night. Then you took a Charter job at the local FBO. Before you were hire-able at a commuter (they weren't regionals back then) you had many hours making your own decisions, flying in real weather, dealing with ice (by avoiding the stuff) and in general learning how to take care of yourself.

I'm sorry, but being able to pass an ATP checkride in a sim is really no measure of experience and that's what is being sacrificed by the flying public when they buy the ticket from the cheapest airline.

Yes, I work for the cheapest Airline. Yes, I'm underpaid. Yes, twenty or thirty thousand RJ pilots would take my A319 seat in a heartbeat if I could sell it. There is no easy fix. Hopefully ALPA and the CAPA will be able to capitalize on the publicity and positively promote SAFE, WELL PAID pilots.

The Kaley letter may well be a case of "all publicity is good publicity". He did it, now we need to capitalize on the publicity.

Don't write your newspaper defending the crew, write your newspaper attacking the airline business for refusing to pay for experience.

 

[jimcav]

Captain Kaley really should have left out his opinion that the accident might end up being labeled pilot error.



On the broader topic if pilot experience, the one thing most of you are missing is that most of us who happen to be older than 40 and civilian trained DID start out with NO experience, but we were NOT flying paying passengers in scheduled service until we HAD experience.

My generation of civilians and most generations preceding mine spent years in the lower ranks before being hired into the cockpit of an airliner. Whether that airliner was a Piper Navajo, a Beech 99, a Banderante, a Twin Otter, a Metro, or else - that airliner was nothing more than a turbine powered version of the airplane we were already flying. The business allowed us to build experience on top of experience, to add technology a little bit at a time. The system in place today denies a beginning pilot the opportunity to build his experience layer upon layer.

Most of my college classmates worked as CFI's for thousands of hours. If we were lucky, we managed to move from there to a beat up Baron or Navajo flying film or checks at night. Then you took a Charter job at the local FBO. Before you were hire-able at a commuter (they weren't regionals back then) you had many hours making your own decisions, flying in real weather, dealing with ice (by avoiding the stuff) and in general learning how to take care of yourself.

I'm sorry, but being able to pass an ATP checkride in a sim is really no measure of experience and that's what is being sacrificed by the flying public when they buy the ticket from the cheapest airline.

Yes, I work for the cheapest Airline. Yes, I'm underpaid. Yes, twenty or thirty thousand RJ pilots would take my A319 seat in a heartbeat if I could sell it. There is no easy fix. Hopefully ALPA and the CAPA will be able to capitalize on the publicity and positively promote SAFE, WELL PAID pilots.

The Kaley letter may well be a case of "all publicity is good publicity". He did it, now we need to capitalize on the publicity.

Don't write your newspaper defending the crew, write your newspaper attacking the airline business for refusing to pay for experience.

Well said sir.

 

[SLUF4]

Well, you can't paint this whole generation of regional pilots with a broad stroke like that. Some of us went the same route. Personally I instructed 4 years, moved up to King Airs, then Citations, then the RJ. I fly with new FO's at my airline that have done the same. We aren't all getting hired at 250 hours.

 

[jimcav]

Good point. Some of you guys did pay your dues. However those who took the old school civilian road seem to be a dying breed.

 

[mvedepo]

hmmmmm has Midwest ever had a fatal crash attributed to pilot error?

It happened. It was unfortunate. Hopefully we can take something away from it prevent it from happening again , ie. guard and retard. Its a shame that this individual wants to push his opinion by grave dancing.

 

[Mike man]

He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry, the profession, or ALPA.

Taken directly from the ALPA Code of Ethics.

I move that Scott Kaley be relieved of his ALPA membership...any seconds?

 

[ewrord]

It seems to me that many people on this thread have no issue with the airlines denigrating the pilot profession by having no set minimum experience level. This is the root of the problem and it is why our careers are no longer as prosperous as they used to be.

 

[CitationLover]

Taken directly from the ALPA Code of Ethics.

I move that Scott Kaley be relieved of his ALPA membership...any seconds?

Tim Hoeksema already took care of his ALPA status.

It's ok as ALPA national will sign off on the MPL soon enough further denigrating our jobs.

 

[enigma]

Tim Hoeksema already took care of his ALPA status.

It's ok as ALPA national will sign off on the MPL soon enough further denigrating our jobs.

I've been out of ALPA work for a year, but the last I checked, ALPA was fighting the MPL with all available resources.

 

[JungleJett]

There are a plethora of "mainline" airline accidents that could have been avoided by a 250 hr commercial pilot. Case in point: forgetting to set takeoff flaps.

Making sure you put the right fix into the FMS and the verifying it with the other pilot.

..making sure you actually land on a runway and not the taxiway.

....going to another airport when your airplanes x-wind limits are exceeded and you are tired.

....not landing on a snow covered runway and delaying action.

.....not jamming the rudder around and causing the tail to snap off.

....making sure your wings are free of ice and snow.

.....I'll stop there.

The dude is a DB.....

 

[JungleJett]

If you're referring to the EAL crash in the Everglades, they weren't "on approach". They were on extended vectors while troubleshooting their gear warning light.

You might want to read up on stuff before you post inaccuracies.

and that makes it less dumb.

 

[CitationLover]

I've been out of ALPA work for a year, but the last I checked, ALPA was fighting the MPL with all available resources.

Just like they "fought" age 65......

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

Oh my god.. Last week, a child shot himself in the head with his fathers pistol while he was playing with it. If I were to say "Parents need to practice better security with their firearms or there may be more accidents, which it looks like may have caused the accident last week." Now, was that statement against the poor little kid who did not know any better,or against the irresponsible parents?

His statement was directed toward the companies that hire low time pilots, not the deceased crew members. I know plenty of pilots who got hired at their regional with 300 hours, as many of you probably do as well. I don't blame them for taking the job, if I could have with 300 hours, I probably would have also. There were times when I was an FO and the ******************** would hit the fan, I would think "Thank god I wasn't the Captain." I have also had Captains tell me "Glad you were here".

On this notion that he is an a##hole for saying that the accident "may have been pilot error". I offer this.

To all the Conservatives on here, better ban fox news
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,495267,00.html

Heres one for the liberals
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29233475/

Google it and see for yourself.