ASA to furlough?

[asa rat]

From Brad Holts mouth on Thanksgiving day in the crew lounge. He stated that we are okay in Jan., Feb is when the fourloughs would happen if they happen at all. He did say that any fourlough would be short term, but they hope to avoid them all together if they can due to the overall effect on morale and hurting the pilots fourloughed.

So what else did Brad cover or answer during his visit?
And "hats off" to him for showing up on Thanksgiving Day!! Yet another example of his commitment to ASA

 

[twott driver]

look for half pay lines for those that want the month off, and lots of COMA's..... can't see a furlough for just a few months. Would cost them more than it would save. Also, March has my money for when Mesa goes TU. Keeping everyone around til then at least, in case of opportunities. They certainly aren't keeping 200 extra pilots around out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[79%N1]

Or are they?


PS......Mesa isn't going anywhere, and what makes anybody think that if they do, ASA will see one iota of that flying????? Me thinks ALL the vultures will pounce and ExpressJet, Air Wisc, Trans States, Pinnacle and Skywest will all beat ASA to any of that flying! Remember, ASA is STILL one of the highest cost carriers out there, so why would any new flying come to ASA when EVERYONE can and will undercut us?????

 

[Abernathy]

Or are they?


PS......Mesa isn't going anywhere, and what makes anybody think that if they do, ASA will see one iota of that flying????? Me thinks ALL the vultures will pounce and ExpressJet, Air Wisc, Trans States, Pinnacle and Skywest will all beat ASA to any of that flying! Remember, ASA is STILL one of the highest cost carriers out there, so why would any new flying come to ASA when EVERYONE can and will undercut us?????

Or you can quit your b*tching and fly the CI profiles, get to work on time, wait for PBS to come on property (because all indications point to it coming soon), implore your captains to taxi single engine and kill the APU, and RIF everything that causes a delay so management knows where to fix things. Then, all you can do is leave the rest to BH. He's done a decent job so far and I can only hope he can negotiate something with Delta with what we can bring to the table from the line.

 

[79%N1]

Um............excuse me? Where was I bitching??? I simply said don't think it is a lock for ASA to get Mesa flying, as everyone seems to be pinning their hopes for the future on. There will be many others looking to pounce on that flying, if it were to ever come up. Not the least of which is our big brothers Skywest, who I'm nearly certain would want to jump on that flying.

As far as your advice, thanks a ton. However, I am a Captain, and I ASSURE you I already embrace every and all cost saving measures including the ones you so eloquently mentioned. So, you can sleep tight tonight.

 

[Abernathy]

Um............excuse me? Where was I bitching??? I simply said don't think it is a lock for ASA to get Mesa flying, as everyone seems to be pinning their hopes for the future on. There will be many others looking to pounce on that flying, if it were to ever come up. Not the least of which is our big brothers Skywest, who I'm nearly certain would want to jump on that flying.

As far as your advice, thanks a ton. However, I am a Captain, and I ASSURE you I already embrace every and all cost saving measures including the ones you so eloquently mentioned. So, you can sleep tight tonight.

I consider relentless doom and gloom a form of bitching that does nothing but kill what is already low morale. It's one thing to be realistic. It's completely another thing to accentuate and hyperbolize every possible negative outcome without offering a solution or any ideas.

But good to know you're following the cost cutting measures. A lot of Captains still do not, and the FOs can't do much about it except ask why.

 

[outtahere]

Brad also mentioned that as long as our performance stays where it is Delta will not have a pot to piss in if they tried to cancel our contract. Not quite his words verbatim, but you get the idea. Also we own the leases on most of the gates on C, and some on D, so he said that was our ace in the hole.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Brad also mentioned that as long as our performance stays where it is Delta will not have a pot to piss in if they tried to cancel our contract. Not quite his words verbatim, but you get the idea. Also we own the leases on most of the gates on C, and some on D, so he said that was our ace in the hole.

I think that DAL would disagree on who owns the gates. Now SKW has right of first refusal, but there are some mean restrictions to it. Call over to DAL's real estates department. I have, and seen how it is structured.

 

[McNugent]

I consider relentless doom and gloom a form of bitching that does nothing but kill what is already low morale. It's one thing to be realistic. It's completely another thing to accentuate and hyperbolize every possible negative outcome without offering a solution or any ideas.

But good to know you're following the cost cutting measures. A lot of Captains still do not, and the FOs can't do much about it except ask why.

Get used to it. Doom and gloom is what 79% does best. I've been put in bad moods many times from his relentlessly miserable posts. If you had believed everything he forecast, ASA should have been done with years ago.

On the same note I do agree with him a little bit on this one. There are plenty of players waiting for Mesa to take a dump, many of which are cheaper than us. Even if Mesa does go away (which I have my doubts) we may not be affected by that at all. But personally I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yet you all support a union that enabled this portfolio whipsaw.....If you don't like it...hold your union accountable......

We are competing with fellow ALPA members for work....and cost is one the benchmarks used in the competition.....Either demand that your union stop the competition....or compete with everyone.....Those are the two choices....

 

[Abernathy]

Yet you all support a union that enabled this portfolio whipsaw.....If you don't like it...hold your union accountable......

We are competing with fellow ALPA members for work....and cost is one the benchmarks used in the competition.....Either demand that your union stop the competition....or compete with everyone.....Those are the two choices....

Joe can you elaborate on ALPAs responsibility for this

 

[79%N1]

Get used to it. Doom and gloom is what 79% does best. I've been put in bad moods many times from his relentlessly miserable posts. If you had believed everything he forecast, ASA should have been done with years ago.

On the same note I do agree with him a little bit on this one. There are plenty of players waiting for Mesa to take a dump, many of which are cheaper than us. Even if Mesa does go away (which I have my doubts) we may not be affected by that at all. But personally I'm cautiously optimistic.

Give me a freaking break....

I give my opinions here like everyone else does. Just because I try to be realistic and read the industry (as my opinion) does not mean doom and gloom. For instance, I have been long saying that I do not see us getting 90's (where I have been right), and I don't see us getting any new bases. So, since I have been right, I'm sorry for not just painting a rosy picture at what you all want to hear. But thanks for agreeing on my other point. Unfortunately, I think it is ASA's current growth plan to wait for Mesa to die, which I don't see happening.

 

[JumpersAway]

Joe, would you support a measure that would allow the Mesa pilots to come to ASA, by date of hire, to end the whipsaw? If a bundle of them ended up tied into our seniority list, and it directly impacted your seniority number, would you embrace it?

I'm not trying to fan a fire here, just curious. Ultimately, the ONLY way to end this whipsaw is to allow pilots to carry their experience from one carrier to another, and not to the bottom where they earn 20k as an FO with 10k hours of experience.

That being said- I concour we need to follow the CI to a T. Everything we can do, from every pilot, is required here. Instead, people are looking for other pilots to take up the slack, because they are too inept, or lazy, to save the gas and put forth an effort. Not everyone is like this- most I'm flying with are truly top notch. However, I've definately flown with my fair share of guys that seem not to care, as long as the check clears.

 

[79%N1]

Speaking of CI numbers, has anyone else noticed incredibly slow speeds? I had a climb speed of 246 to 31000', then a cruise of 253 into the 160 knot head winds the other day. Thought that was a bit suspect.

 

[Abernathy]

Speaking of CI numbers, has anyone else noticed incredibly slow speeds? I had a climb speed of 246 to 31000', then a cruise of 253 into the 160 knot head winds the other day. Thought that was a bit suspect.

I think that's the point.

 

[79%N1]

Yet we have been told for years to not fly below 290 in the climb, nor ever fly below 250 at altitude. I'm just saying........

Nothing like 200 kts ground speed enroute in a CRJ.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, would you support a measure that would allow the Mesa pilots to come to ASA, by date of hire, to end the whipsaw? If a bundle of them ended up tied into our seniority list, and it directly impacted your seniority number, would you embrace it?

I'm not trying to fan a fire here, just curious. Ultimately, the ONLY way to end this whipsaw is to allow pilots to carry their experience from one carrier to another, and not to the bottom where they earn 20k as an FO with 10k hours of experience.

I would IF it was included in a package brand scope deal that ended future whipsaw.....It would require the mainline pilots to get on board....The longer this drags out...the less likely we can pull it off...

Back in 2000 when the ASA and CMR MECs filed the PID...we had a chance...Now it is much less likely...

In the absence of a comprehensive brand scope deal....I support doing what is best for US....

It's time to $h!t or get off the pot for ALPA........

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe can you elaborate on ALPAs responsibility for this

1. First they sold scope to prop up pay and workrules...At one time all flying was done by the brand carrier...

2. Next they used scope as a remote control to try and control the size of aircraft that were used....This resulted in the wrong sized aircraft being used...

3. Third they encouraged more alter-ego carriers to compete for flying with the mainline scope clauses...4 that were created by mainline scope language are:

Freedom
GoJet
MidAtlantic
Compass

All 4 of these reduced the cost of the competition...All 4 had lower rates and workrules...in addition to lower longevity.....

4. In addition to ignoring "brand scope"....ALPA refuses to deal with transportability of experience and barriers to entry.....Failure to address these issues means that despite all the belly aching on FI....nothing will change when nobody is willing to lay it all on the line and anybody with a couple hundred hours can replace you......

 

[Roger Dat]

I think that DAL would disagree on who owns the gates. Now SKW has right of first refusal, but there are some mean restrictions to it. Call over to DAL's real estates department. I have, and seen how it is structured.

we might own our gate leases, and Delta might own their's, but come 2010, they all expire and what happens then is anyone's guess.

 

[Abernathy]

1. First they sold scope to prop up pay and workrules...At one time all flying was done by the brand carrier...

2. Next they used scope as a remote control to try and control the size of aircraft that were used....This resulted in the wrong sized aircraft being used...

3. Third they encouraged more alter-ego carriers to compete for flying with the mainline scope clauses...4 that were created by mainline scope language are:

Freedom
GoJet
MidAtlantic
Compass

All 4 of these reduced the cost of the competition...All 4 had lower rates and workrules...in addition to lower longevity.....

4. In addition to ignoring "brand scope"....ALPA refuses to deal with transportability of experience and barriers to entry.....Failure to address these issues means that despite all the belly aching on FI....nothing will change when nobody is willing to lay it all on the line and anybody with a couple hundred hours can replace you......

I had a feeling that's what you were referring to. But unfortunately, like you, I don't see a way out of it.

It's like 10 people suing and counter suing each other and all being represented by the same attorney.

 

[sweptback]

I think that DAL would disagree on who owns the gates. Now SKW has right of first refusal, but there are some mean restrictions to it. Call over to DAL's real estates department. I have, and seen how it is structured.

I believe SkyWest owns the gates, but can't use them for anybody other than Delta. Kinda pointless, except maybe if Delta didn't exist.

 

[at7driver]

I thought SKW sold them back to delta....


you might want to check into the 246.. I do not believe its a good thing to be below 250KIAS in the flight levels.. poor engine performance from what I remember..


fwiw

 

[JoeMerchant]

I had a feeling that's what you were referring to. But unfortunately, like you, I don't see a way out of it.

It's like 10 people suing and counter suing each other and all being represented by the same attorney.

....in that case....we need to do what is best for us...and forget the chirade of some "brotherhood".....

A serious challenge to ALPA by all the regionals is the last chance to force a change.......

Many of us "troublemakers" pointed out these problems years ago....but they were ignored....ALPA has made the bed...

 

[79%N1]

I thought SKW sold them back to delta....


you might want to check into the 246.. I do not believe its a good thing to be below 250KIAS in the flight levels.. poor engine performance from what I remember..


fwiw

Thats what I'm saying. Some of those CI numbers seem suspect, as much as I want to be a team player and abide by them.

 

[Abernathy]

Thats what I'm saying. Some of those CI numbers seem suspect, as much as I want to be a team player and abide by them.

The 250 in climb is a hard number like many others that is used a benchmark safeguard. In other words, you "can't go wrong" at 250. That said, the engine won't corelock at 249.9 kts.

The CI takes the engine performance parameters into account and works out a more precise number that doesn't rely on that type of premise. It does the calculations so we don't have to rely on hard numbers like 250.

The numbers are good. They're just not as round as you're used to.

If you have any serious doubts, rather than ignoring the given CI climb profiles (not that you did), e-mail an IP.

 

[jetracer5]

its 250kts or .70m whichever is less. 242 at FL310 is most likely above .70m

 

[COOPERVANE]

its 250kts or .70m whichever is less. 242 at FL310 is most likely above .70m

EXACTLY 242 is LESS than 250 so you cant do it!

 

[JoeMerchant]

....you can actually do more than 250KTS?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

What can ASA pilots do if they line up next to Mesa pilots or Mesaba pilots or Comair pilots in unity? How is there unity if each pilot group has a different contract? Should the groups with members with more longevity be compensated differently than those with groups with substantially less?

What does unity in competition look like? Someone please answer this question in more than just conceptual terms. A lower bottom line cost to the company and strong performance numbers is the only way to offer a competitive product for a contractor to gain growth, or even keep current work.

I haven't seen any evidence of ASA stepping up to unite other pilot groups. Either the effort to get this work hasn't been done, or the effort to publicize it hasn't been done. Either way, put the BS aside and get to work now on a contract that management of different companies are going to want to go after ASA for.

 

[sweptback]

EXACTLY 242 is LESS than 250 so you cant do it!

Then you'd never be able to fly above, say FL340.

Once you get past the transition altitude, IAS is pretty meaningless. Fly the mach number, that's what it's there for.

ASA's high altitude training is pretty good, but they relied on some crutches like the whole never go below 250/M.70 thing. Phase 2 of this cost index thing will see cruise airspeeds below M.70 (unless something has changed). You may actually have to accelerate above M.70 before you can climb... but in level flight you should be ok.