Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[landlover]

You don't fully understand the fundamental differences between captain and first officer and how that relationship would torpedo your proposal.

If everybody made X dollars per hour regardless of their seat then your idea would work, be both know airline management nor pilots would ever go for that. Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement being a captain provides....and that says nothing for how schedules and vacations would be awarded!

THAT is what my dear friend flyer172r was talking about.

Address those industry-specific issues, and you're (maybe) in business.

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

 

[waveflyer]

Look at our current seniority system.
Why do companies buy off on upgrading 6-10 year FO's when they could hire a "1st" year Aloha or ATA captain, who's much more qualified?
What about the senior FO that's not very talented, has a poor attitude and trainining record that companies still make a captain? They're only fired if really, really bad.

 

[flyer172r]

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

 

[instructordude]

A national line of seniority is coming just like the Age 60 change. Like changing the retirement age it is the right thing to do.

 

[landlover]

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

that would make life really easy but most pilot's egos are so big they would never go for it.

but to get my point across i used that as an example. obviously i couldn't have evey detail worked out but the current system is just plain silly and for some reason people think it is great.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm sure airline managements across the world would easily and willingly accept hiring (for example) an 18 year ATA Captain 757 captain who is out of a job and putting him at 18 year longevity pay as a captain at even a place like Mesaba.

Oh wait, Mesaba has only Saabs and CR9s. What would the former ATA captain be paid, Saab or 900 rates? What seat would he be entitled to, right or left? Would his pay reflect Captain or FO 18 year rates?

So many questions, so many examples of why this "guild" idea will never work. If you're talking about keeping longevity from ME ATP date for pay purposes only, and every 'retred' is hired into the right seat at their new airline paid at their longevity FO rates then that's a MUCH workable situation...but still raises the issue of 1. how do you compel an airline to hire that much more expensive pilot, 2. what about CRM issues on the part of the "natives" and the "transfers", and 3. who the EFF keeps track of it all?

It's just like communism...sounds great in theory but is piss-poor in execution.

 

[instructordude]

It would work if we all agreed or were required by the goverment to work for certain wages regardless of the aircraft. F/O pay could max out at say 75K and all Capt pay would max out at 150K. Then gurantee yearly raises of 1-2%. I think it could work great.

 

[waveflyer]

It's just like communism...sounds great in theory but is piss-poor in execution.

kind of like our own socialist seniority system? Anyone who thinks the current system works is crazy.

 

[Vne]

A National 'list" is DOA because of the inherent inequity of an implementation formula.
A National pay rate is more feasible.
Let National set a Captains rate based on EQ with FO's at a percentage (ex: 65%)

The only thing a "pilot group" negotiates with Management is a benefit package.
No more undercutting an hourly rate for any EQ.

This I think is possible but it would take a forward looking national consensus which history shows is very elusive.
That could be the first step to stop the whipsawing of pilot vs. pilot fostered by management.
jmofwiw

 

[JT12345]

Ok.

Pass the bong.

Things are just gonna get to the point where it won't even matter.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

When LCC or some other poorly run airline goes out of business they'll be able to bump the pilots of much better carriers to the street. Yeah, that's better.

They've already done that.

 

[Sluggo_63]

if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience?

What if the guy with 25 years of service under their belt never worked with aluminum wiring, and that's what the building required? Does the building wait to get wired until the more senior guy goes to school on aluminum wiring? But the 5 year guy is already qualified? Who pays for the training? I think this would be a mess...

 

[Jetjockey]

Even if the huge complication of solving a nation list came to fruition, it would be a hard sell to airline management telling them exactly who they had to hire. This should have been done when the industry de-regulated. Not 30+ years later.

 

[waveflyer]

What if the guy with 25 years of service under their belt never worked with aluminum wiring, and that's what the building required? Does the building wait to get wired until the more senior guy goes to school on aluminum wiring? But the 5 year guy is already qualified? Who pays for the training? I think this would be a mess...

bad analogy- especially at your place.
Gen X has been way better at FMS and glass than BB's- yet they've been senior... and we get to scratch our head while they struggle- and the company foots the bill.

(little flame there... but true flame so i give myself permission)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

bad analogy- especially at your place.
Gen X has been way better at FMS and glass than BB's- yet they've been senior... and we get to scratch our head while they struggle- and the company foots the bill.

(little flame there... but true flame so i give myself permission)

permission approved!

 

[licorice]

bad analogy- especially at your place.
Gen X has been way better at FMS and glass than BB's- yet they've been senior... and we get to scratch our head while they struggle- and the company foots the bill.

(little flame there... but true flame so i give myself permission)

Where do I begin? Let's see...many GenXers don't know their 3rd grade multiplication tables because of an over reliance on calculators since elementary school. Average test scores in math (closest subject related to piloting in general education) have steadily decreased, especially during the time of GenXers basic education. The engineers actually thought a moving map display on a CRT would make it more difficult to interpret present position than forming a mental image using a VOR(TAC) needle and DME...yeah right....--Pushing a button that flies direct to a point vs. actually using geometry and the esoteric, obscure concept of proportionality to interpret a direct course with VOR/DME. You GenXers are merely end-users of FM systems that were conceived and developed long before you were on the aviation scene. And it is common knowledge that a pilot's skill and seasoning is directly proportional to his typing speed. Yeah, you GenXers and your nimble fingers are real geniuses...eventually they'll have 3 control buttons on all airplanes for you guys: 1-"takeoff" 2-"fly to destination" 3-"land"

 

[waveflyer]

Nope. wrong again. maybe Gen Y is that way. But not us.
GenX are the best flyers b/c we learned to fly on needles and pointers and no autopilots- we still have that ingrained= but have no trouble at all w/ the computer side. I enjoy all flying and don't get hung up on how the info is presented to me.
Maybe you can say the same. But you'd be an exception- i've seen you guys struggle--- over and over and over... all while voting to disenfranchise my generation and believe that you are actually better.
News: You're not. That's been proven to me over and over.
I couldn't imagine i'd have such disdain for the generation that came before me- but you guys earn it w/ every vote you cast- in your MEC and in general elections. Look at the career and country you've left us before you start to lecture me on anything.

 

[BoilerUP]

Nope. wrong again. maybe Gen Y is that way. But not us.
GenX are the best flyers b/c we learned to fly on needles and pointers and no autopilots- we still have that ingrained= but have no trouble at all w/ the computer side.

Humility is also a GenX strong suit, evidently...

 

[waveflyer]

given... but you know- you want me humble and maybe you should ask every instructor and pilot i fly w/ to stop telling me how good i am. ha!

...(jesus...sorry)

But maybe too much humility has been our downfall.
We trusted BB's not to sell us out.
That's proven to be pretty naive.

(IF this indictment resonates as unfair to you personally-- ask what you did to keep scope in the box? Ask what you've done to flatten out wages and rid us of 1st year pay? Ask what you did to lessen the impact of age 65?)

 

[Ocity]

pipe dream, it will never happen

Lee Seham, the USAPA attorney said a national list was a "slam dunk"...If we can just get him a multi million dollar retainer, he'll get to work straight away!!!!