Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[PBRstreetgang]

well if this is communism it takes place every second of everyday in most skilled labor trades.

Yeah,
He says its "communism" while sucking on the Gov't teat. Wait till he has to enter the real world and try the furlough shoes on, that "communism" stuff will start to sound better.
PBR

 

[Double Shot]

No way! If this ever came to a vote (and I doubt it ever would) my vote would be HELL NO! and how abot NO ********************ING WAY!

 

[ASADFW7]

As an applicant for a company you wish to work for you are responsible for your choice of seeking employment with that company. No to one list.

 

[landlover]

No, and here's why: because both are doing the exact same job. what difference does it make to the building owner how much experience the guy had as long as the job is done right?

Same thing with pilots. I have never understood the longevity pay scale. Two 737 pilots, one a 12 year FO and the other a 2 year FO, are doing the exact same job. Why does that 12 year FO deserve more money? Conversely, why does that 2 year FO deserve less money. At the end of the day, both are doing he the exact same job: moving the airplane from A to B. Eliminate longevity based pay, pay all pilots in the same equipment and seat the same, and you do two things: 1) eliminate management's tool of shifting flying from one carrier to another because the other carrier has less senior pilots, and 2) minimze the pain felt by pilots who have to switch jobs after 5 or 10 years. Much more effective and easier to get than an NSL

you make very good points, i just think it is nationwide standard to get a pay increase every year why should the airlines be different? what would you propose as far as giving raises? everyone gets one every year based on inflation etc..? I say just get rid of a seniority number all together.



flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

 

[waveflyer]

ASA it's not that simple:
We still don't have to set it up so that it's so punishing to change companies. No teacher or doctor or attorney takes such a HUGE hit when changing companies.
Most of us only want to fly airplanes out of the base we want. Who cares what's on the tail?
To me- 1st year pay is a big problem to this. To change companies we have to deal w/ being junior- (which is already a SOCIALIST way to set it up w/in our companies)- then have to deal w/ poverty wages. It's no choice at all. We've cut the legs out of capitalism by this jeckyl and hyde system.

And we've done it to ourselves.

 

[BoilerUP]

flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

You don't fully understand the fundamental differences between captain and first officer and how that relationship would torpedo your proposal.

If everybody made X dollars per hour regardless of their seat then your idea would work, be both know airline management nor pilots would ever go for that. Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement being a captain provides....and that says nothing for how schedules and vacations would be awarded!

THAT is what my dear friend flyer172r was talking about.

Address those industry-specific issues, and you're (maybe) in business.

 

[SSDD]

To me, the first issue you have to address is pay. Set a national payscale for each airframe. Get that done and then, maybe, you can talk about a single seniority list.

 

[waveflyer]

you can't have equal pay w/o one seniority list.

if tough times place someones job in jeopardy- that pilot group would not have the ability to reduce their pay in order to protect their seniority-- to me, that's good- b/c it doesn't protect it anyway- just a much harder sell.

 

[flyer172r]

flyer172 you don't fully understand how a non pilot union works. no one would bump you out of any seat if they were out of a job. if a pilot was out of work he could go anywhere that was hiring, not steal anyones seat. instead of there being 50 mickey Ds franchise style ALPAs there would be one big union and they would set the rate for airplane X doing X amount of flying. no one would really care where they worked aside from being somewhere geographically since it would all be the same.

For some reason I can never quite match my friend boiler's eloquence, so I will simply say that his reply was what I was trying to get at in terms of taking people's upgrades and seats. Now, if we limited the scope of a national list to only determining what kind of pay scale a pilot would get when they switched companies but still put them on the bottom of the list for schedules, upgrades, and equipment, then I'm sure there'd be a lot more support.

Of course, good luck telling a senior United pilot that he can keep his salary but go back to reserve when he moves to Atlanta and wants to work at Delta (just an example, don't read anything into it).

 

[Poahi]

Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement (maybe) in business.

Under that scenario, why would that airline want to hire anyone senior? They would be stacked with both senior captains and senior FO's. Airlines would resist this.

Then, the senior guys would complain that SWA, FEDEX, UPS, whatever airline wouldn't hire me because I'm too expensive... The would rather upgrade the home grown cheaper pilots making the popular airlines heavy with senior pilots.

On the other hand, that FO would have upgrade options at other less desirable airlines. See the problem?

 

[landlover]

You don't fully understand the fundamental differences between captain and first officer and how that relationship would torpedo your proposal.

If everybody made X dollars per hour regardless of their seat then your idea would work, be both know airline management nor pilots would ever go for that. Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement being a captain provides....and that says nothing for how schedules and vacations would be awarded!

THAT is what my dear friend flyer172r was talking about.

Address those industry-specific issues, and you're (maybe) in business.

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

 

[waveflyer]

Look at our current seniority system.
Why do companies buy off on upgrading 6-10 year FO's when they could hire a "1st" year Aloha or ATA captain, who's much more qualified?
What about the senior FO that's not very talented, has a poor attitude and trainining record that companies still make a captain? They're only fired if really, really bad.

 

[flyer172r]

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

 

[instructordude]

A national line of seniority is coming just like the Age 60 change. Like changing the retirement age it is the right thing to do.

 

[landlover]

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

that would make life really easy but most pilot's egos are so big they would never go for it.

but to get my point across i used that as an example. obviously i couldn't have evey detail worked out but the current system is just plain silly and for some reason people think it is great.