Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[BoilerUP]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

 

[landlover]

and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

why would anyone get punished? you are thinking about it backwards. if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience? it would be the same thing if company X needed a pilot and hired a guy with 25 years in the union. the problem is the current system(it's a bad system) is so ingrained in everyone you can't see how change would be good.

 

[landlover]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

yes but it would only make you eligible where a single engine atp would be required so it wouldn't be very useful. so you would be paying dues for not a whole lot of job prospects. making you want to get an multi atp, thus being able to work more places.

 

[Jar Jar]

Would a single-engine ATP be sufficient for entry?

All the details can be hammered out before a list is implemented - we could have 300 pages of discussion of the potential details and everyone would lose interest. How many people even read this far?

The first step is just creating it - and yea I'll mention it to my LEC.

 

[landlover]

When LCC or some other poorly run airline goes out of business they'll be able to bump the pilots of much better carriers to the street. Yeah, that's better.

no no no no no!!! if airline X goes t!ts up, the guys that lost there job don't take anyones job. they just maintain their pay scale for years in the union.

 

[Jar Jar]

Dude - Step 1.

Instead of talking about problems in Flightinfo,

All due respect, I think flightinfo is the ideal place to discuss the subject - where else can I find guys that wont just agree with me to make the trip go by more smoothly?

come up with a solution(s) that considers all of the pros, but most importantly, all of the cons. Consider union vs. non-union companies, pay parity, respect for seat and domicile protections.

I don't think I have enough expertise in the subject to personally hammer out those details. I do think that its a job that will be very complex and require people with a more appropriate skillset than mine to hammer out those details. The time will come for that, and I think that it could be done in a manner that protects everyone's long-term interests if we do it right.

You don't have to jump between year 1-5 in pay for your entire career...and those working at profitable, successful carriers shouldn't be punished by having those working at unprofitable, dysfunctional carriers constantly coming in on top of them on the seniority list.

What happens when the company you thought was going to be successful goes under due to mismanagement? Is that something you can even see coming more than 1-5 years in advance? I think not.

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

 

[KCPilot]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

Here's a riddle for you:


There are 10 frogs on a log. One of them decides to jump.

How many frogs are left on the log?





























10 frogs.

To decide and to actually do, are two different things.

 

[Jar Jar]

Thats cute

 

[landlover]

The whole thing sounds like communism!

well if this is communism it takes place every second of everyday in most skilled labor trades.

 

[flyer172r]

I would gladly give a more senior pilot my job now if it meant that I'd never have to worry about that happening during my career.

You'd gladly give up your job to someone else? Do you live off a trust fund or do you just have a really good fall back plan? If you implemented this plan you'd constantly have to worry about other pilots taking the upgrades you were in line for or coming over to your company to fly a bigger airplane for more money while you're stuck on the smaller equipment. I'd agree that national pay rates and work rules are a good idea, but good luck getting everyone to agree on letting senior pilots bump them out of their own seats.

 

[hoover]

if someone with 25 years under their belt shows up to wire a building, should he get payed more then a guy with 5 years of experience?

No, and here's why: because both are doing the exact same job. what difference does it make to the building owner how much experience the guy had as long as the job is done right?

Same thing with pilots. I have never understood the longevity pay scale. Two 737 pilots, one a 12 year FO and the other a 2 year FO, are doing the exact same job. Why does that 12 year FO deserve more money? Conversely, why does that 2 year FO deserve less money. At the end of the day, both are doing he the exact same job: moving the airplane from A to B. Eliminate longevity based pay, pay all pilots in the same equipment and seat the same, and you do two things: 1) eliminate management's tool of shifting flying from one carrier to another because the other carrier has less senior pilots, and 2) minimze the pain felt by pilots who have to switch jobs after 5 or 10 years. Much more effective and easier to get than an NSL

 

[Jar Jar]

I would - and yea I'm capable of finding work in another field until I would be able to return, hell TSA baggage screeners make more money than most 121 F/Os - its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

National pay rates and work rules are great too, like I've said a few times here already - the details can all be hammered out when the time comes but we have to do something significant to pull our profession out of this downward spiral.

 

[flyer172r]

its a small sacrifice now as a junior guy in order to guarantee future prosperity - thats fine with me.

I don't see how this guarantees any prosperity. Assuming for a moment we keep negotiating individual contracts, then any time one company gets a good contract, nothing would stop everyone else from coming over to work there and bumping down (and forcing out), the guys who had been working there before. Once again, it would greatly benefit the senior guys at the expense of those junior.

 

[waveflyer]

communism?
and what do you think we have now is?

Our seniority lists compromise the free hand of competition. The reason is that b/c this career is so end-loaded- and FIRST year pay is so low industry wide- once you gain any sort of seniority anywhere- you cannot offer your services to another company.

I've said this for years now--- we will never see leverage return while pilots continue to vote republican-- To not support unionism, while employing a system where we cannot take advantage of capitalism is INSANE.

Whether it's a national list or an evening out of payscales across the longevity/seniority levels- we need to be able to change companies easier. We need to get to work on it now!