Are you guys tired of this yet? Time for National list?

[landlover]

You don't fully understand the fundamental differences between captain and first officer and how that relationship would torpedo your proposal.

If everybody made X dollars per hour regardless of their seat then your idea would work, be both know airline management nor pilots would ever go for that. Under your idea, its possible that a first officer could perpetually have more senior pilots from other airlines coming in on top of him/her, preventing them from upgrading and enjoying the salary and career enhancement being a captain provides....and that says nothing for how schedules and vacations would be awarded!

THAT is what my dear friend flyer172r was talking about.

Address those industry-specific issues, and you're (maybe) in business.

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

 

[waveflyer]

Look at our current seniority system.
Why do companies buy off on upgrading 6-10 year FO's when they could hire a "1st" year Aloha or ATA captain, who's much more qualified?
What about the senior FO that's not very talented, has a poor attitude and trainining record that companies still make a captain? They're only fired if really, really bad.

 

[flyer172r]

sure lets just make everyone a captain if that makes it easier to understand. all you guys keep saying other guys would come in and take someones seat, no where did i say that or imply it. i would never happen under my idea. you just can't get the old system out of your head and it is preventing you from seeing something new. if pilot x was laid off and was 5 years in the union, he'd get hired at airline Y right seat left right who cares. cause he was getting 5th year pay no matter where he worked.

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

 

[instructordude]

A national line of seniority is coming just like the Age 60 change. Like changing the retirement age it is the right thing to do.

 

[landlover]

Are you advocating one pay scale per airplane regardless of seat? Captains making the same as FOs?

that would make life really easy but most pilot's egos are so big they would never go for it.

but to get my point across i used that as an example. obviously i couldn't have evey detail worked out but the current system is just plain silly and for some reason people think it is great.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm sure airline managements across the world would easily and willingly accept hiring (for example) an 18 year ATA Captain 757 captain who is out of a job and putting him at 18 year longevity pay as a captain at even a place like Mesaba.

Oh wait, Mesaba has only Saabs and CR9s. What would the former ATA captain be paid, Saab or 900 rates? What seat would he be entitled to, right or left? Would his pay reflect Captain or FO 18 year rates?

So many questions, so many examples of why this "guild" idea will never work. If you're talking about keeping longevity from ME ATP date for pay purposes only, and every 'retred' is hired into the right seat at their new airline paid at their longevity FO rates then that's a MUCH workable situation...but still raises the issue of 1. how do you compel an airline to hire that much more expensive pilot, 2. what about CRM issues on the part of the "natives" and the "transfers", and 3. who the EFF keeps track of it all?

It's just like communism...sounds great in theory but is piss-poor in execution.

 

[instructordude]

It would work if we all agreed or were required by the goverment to work for certain wages regardless of the aircraft. F/O pay could max out at say 75K and all Capt pay would max out at 150K. Then gurantee yearly raises of 1-2%. I think it could work great.

 

[waveflyer]

It's just like communism...sounds great in theory but is piss-poor in execution.

kind of like our own socialist seniority system? Anyone who thinks the current system works is crazy.

 

[Vne]

A National 'list" is DOA because of the inherent inequity of an implementation formula.
A National pay rate is more feasible.
Let National set a Captains rate based on EQ with FO's at a percentage (ex: 65%)

The only thing a "pilot group" negotiates with Management is a benefit package.
No more undercutting an hourly rate for any EQ.

This I think is possible but it would take a forward looking national consensus which history shows is very elusive.
That could be the first step to stop the whipsawing of pilot vs. pilot fostered by management.
jmofwiw

 

[JT12345]

Ok.

Pass the bong.

Things are just gonna get to the point where it won't even matter.