Frontier votes are in!!!! The pilots vote.....

[curtis46]

Keep dreaming. F9 seems to be in some trouble right now, but AirTran and JetBlue are doing just fine. UAL and AMR will be long gone before either of the aforementioned LCCs are gone.

pcl you can't be serious.UAL and AMR have something that A/T and J/B don't have which is asset.we will be long gonne before they do.

 

[labbats]

Keep dreaming. F9 seems to be in some trouble right now, but AirTran and JetBlue are doing just fine. UAL and AMR will be long gone before either of the aforementioned LCCs are gone.

The local congressmen of the legacies will lobby to keep them. That's not a fate the LCCs can rely on.

The Georgia congressmen will fight tooth and nail to keep Delta as will the Colorado guys to keep United, but AirTran and F9 will be cannon fodder.

That's not the way I'd like to see it, but reality is another matter.

 

[Ty Webb]

Cannon fodder . . . . yep, that's us.

We haven't even been through one bankruptcy yet, Skippy, and you can hardly find a seat to non-rev .... I think the Tranny's going to be kicking yo' ass for a long time to come. :laugh:

 

[labbats]

Hey I hope that's the case!

I was simply stating that when it comes to airlines folding, the congressmen will stop it from happening to established legacy airlines. Everyone else is on their own.

 

[ualdriver]

The JB pilots would have voted NO by 80%!!! Well at least I would have voted NO...unfortunately there is too much fear and saving the airline mentalities out there.

The JB pilots would have voted "no?" Does the "JB" you type refer to JetBlue? Because if it does, the JB pilots don't get a vote on anything. They'll take the paycut (if it comes to that) that management gives them and like it. It's not as if the JB pilot group has stood up and gotten themselves organized or anything.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Management seems to have no problem grabbing any of the money for themselves. If we acted like them, we would be giving ourselves bonuses everytime we completed a successful landing while stealing money from the other employees.

The problem is there are too many folks to spread the money around to. A $ 1 million bogus bonus handed out to an empty suit would only amount less than $30 each to a company with 35000 employees. Real money adds up fast.

 

[PCL_128]

pcl you can't be serious.UAL and AMR have something that A/T and J/B don't have which is asset.we will be long gonne before they do.

Assets don't mean jack when you're hemorrhaging money at a rate 10 times that of your LCC competitors. Our loss for the year is still projected to be extremely small. Hell, we're projecting a profit for the second quarter, even with these oil prices. The fact is, our costs our so low that we can sit out and wait for the more costly players to self-destruct and pull out capacity. We're in no immediate danger whatsoever. JetBlue has so much cash on hand that they really don't have to worry for a long time. SWA's hedging strategy will keep them safe for many years. Yes, there are weaker companies that are going to struggle. Frontier is probably in trouble. UAL seems to be drifting aimlessly under Tilton's leadership, and hemorrhaging gobs of money in the process. These are the carriers in trouble, not AAI and JBU, as much as you wish it weren't the case.

 

[waveflyer]

**yawn...***

you're all right.... better not worry about the real problems... better to keep on fighting ourselves... There's a market for LCC's and there is a market for Global carriers... and guess what? they shouldn't be trying to copy each other

 

[Golden Falcon]

Every nickel you gave back will go to the management....congrats guys!!!

 

[328dude]

Our loss for the year is still projected to be extremely small. Hell, we're projecting a profit for the second quarter, even with these oil prices.

I'm not surprised with your current contract and payscales. Just like F9, you're flying under a concessionary contract.

 

[SplitBar]

at $130 a barrel nothings going to help any airline...

Why not? Most foreign airlines have been thriving for decades while paying much higher fuel prices than the US has been spoiled with for decades. US fuel prices are just now catching up with what they have been paying in Europe & Asia for decades. On an average 2-3 hour flight segment, each passenger requires about 13-17 gallons of fuel....it's not an insurmountable hurdle to overcome.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not surprised with your current contract and payscales. Just like F9, you're flying under a concessionary contract.

Really...?

I wasn't aware that airTran had passed any kind of contract in the last several years, and the one currently being flown under represented double-digit percentage increases in wages, increased work rules, better QOL, and the best reserve pay system in the industry, bar-none (including the Legacy carriers).

If you're trying to say that wages are too low for what airTran pilots do, then I agree with you, but it was the pilots who grabbed those big increases on the last contract and the pilots who refused to sign a concessionary contract last September.

Methinks you need to go to a little research and educate thyself before you go throwing that accusation around again. Incidentally, while you're at it, why don't you research just how LITTLE that pilot wages have ANYTHING to do with overall CASM or even non-fuel CASM.

My guess is you don't understand the subject or you're just trying to throw mud - one or the other, which is it?

Why not? Most foreign airlines have been thriving for decades while paying much higher fuel prices than the US has been spoiled with for decades. US fuel prices are just now catching up with what they have been paying in Europe & Asia for decades. On an average 2-3 hour flight segment, each passenger requires about 13-17 gallons of fuel....it's not an insurmountable hurdle to overcome.

Fuel CASM (at $100 per brl) is roughly $0.03 cents per available seat mile, * 450 statute miles per hour = $13.50 per hour.

On a shorter flight, that fuel cost per passenger goes up to almost $0.045 cents per ASM. Taxi times and high takeoff fuel burn don't change with less time at cruise power settings.

Pilot CASM, by the way, is something like $0.012 cents per available seat mile, for their OVERALL compensation package. Doubling their wages only takes it up to $0.017 (1/2 of a penny per mile).

On an 800 mile stage length (2 hours), that's a $4.00 increase per passenger.

Granted, when you look at the fact that your airline flies 20 Million passengers per quarter, that's $80 Million per quarter, $320 Million per year, which are the numbers management teams like to use with us because they sound big (and they are), but you HAVE to understand how this math works for employee compensation.

It's a drop in the bucket when broken down to an individual ticket cost, which is what we SHOULD be concerned with. How much of our increases can we really pass on to the consumer without running them off?

I'm working on a model for increases in fuel and labor and how much it affects ticket prices to break-even. Without having triple-checked it yet, it looks like $135 a brl oil AND labor costs about 25% higher = a $55 increase in ticket price just to break even.

I think that's workable come September when the airlines drop quite a bit of capacity (told you it was coming, AA is just the first), and people get over the stick shock and the fact that they can't get $75 each-way tickets anymore as a general rule.

 

[Cardinal]

No. We were handed a $100M paycut. We didn't get to vote on that, it was given. It's called arbitration. You don't get to vote on arbitration. Learn what you're talking about before you open your pie hole.:angryfire

But y'all voted in the arbitration provision to begin with, and arbitration always cuts the baby in half. A bad idea that ALPA national never liked.

As has been proven at UA, US, DL, NW, etc, in BK you no longer have leverage. If you don't cough up, you get 1113ed. If you cough up, you still might get 1113ed. When was the last time airline labor fared well under an 1113? Never. To top it off, the 1113 doesn't exempt you from the provisions of the RLA, so it's illegal to walk out. The game is rigged, for those that haven't noticed.

And for what it's worth this pay cut is for FOUR MONTHS and it snaps back. We've proven we can play ball, it's up to management to keep them in the air. If we don't have real financing on the table in a couple weeks this will all be a moot point anyway.


Cardinal <- unionist, hardliner, but in touch with reality.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, the game is rigged. That's exactly why all pilots need to vote pro-labor in November. Time to rig the system in our favor.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yes, the game is rigged. That's exactly why all pilots need to vote pro-labor in November. Time to rig the system in our favor.

Yeah, because we all know how much money Labor Contributes to the politicians in DC compared to Corporate America. It will behoove the next pro-labor president to stop everything and get labor to the top of their agenda! Some people don't get it

 

[Dizel8]

Yes, the game is rigged. That's exactly why all pilots need to vote pro-labor in November. Time to rig the system in our favor.

Hate to tell you, but there is no pro labor! Now, there is pandering to labor, but if their lips are moving, they are lying.

The second probelm you run into, is the fact that you are not who Obama and Clinton are talking about,you know, the hard working middle class. It isn't you, it is the guy making 25K a year working in construction or manufacturing, but not you!

Now, they are both proposing spending lots on money on all kinds of beatiful programs, stuff that people want, socialized healthcare, better SS benefits, more money to medicare/medicaid. Yet, there is no money for it, both SS and Medicaid is up the proverbial creek, broke, done, over, cannot be saved. At this point you might as well realize, that when it is time for you to retire, you will not get anything, at the very best, you can hope it becomes means based, meaning if you were absolutely, positively broke, you might get something, but it will not be much.

As for McCain, his view on pilots is well known, we are unpatriotic slime, who needs to understand that the "corporation" come before making a decent living.
I have no doubt, that this view apllies to all who actually works for a living, and in particular, unionized labor. "How dare they!"

As for the war on terror, McCain is going to stay he course, O and H is going to look like deer blinded in the headlights of an oncoming freight train. Neither is what the american people want. The Dems last time ran on a platform of ending the war, bringing troops home, Pelosi was yelling this at the top of her lungs, yet, has anything been accomplished?

No one, and I truly believe, no one on the "hill" has any clue as to how to solve this mess and if they do, they know, that it involves things that are so unpopular, that they would be voted out of office next time around.

The US is broke. Now, I think this is the most amazing country on this planet, but it is broke, not just financially, but leadership wise as well. Not just GW, but all off them. We need someone with a real vision, someone who is willing to face the hard truth, someone who doesn't promise more for less, but truly tells it like it is. Someone like Mr.Smith goes to Washington. That isn't going to happen, by the time a politician takes office, he/she is bought and paid for by special interest groups, who are looking to profit, who wants something in return.

The commom man might elect them, but the common man didn't buy them, hence, in the grand scheme of things,he really isn't that important.

Case in point, we are essentially broke, yet the freewheeling spending continues:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_iraq_funding

 

[FL_Jumpseat]

But y'all voted in the arbitration provision to begin with, and arbitration always cuts the baby in half. A bad idea that ALPA national never liked.

As has been proven at UA, US, DL, NW, etc, in BK you no longer have leverage. If you don't cough up, you get 1113ed. If you cough up, you still might get 1113ed. When was the last time airline labor fared well under an 1113? Never. To top it off, the 1113 doesn't exempt you from the provisions of the RLA, so it's illegal to walk out. The game is rigged, for those that haven't noticed.

And for what it's worth this pay cut is for FOUR MONTHS and it snaps back. We've proven we can play ball, it's up to management to keep them in the air. If we don't have real financing on the table in a couple weeks this will all be a moot point anyway.


Cardinal <- unionist, hardliner, but in touch with reality.

Airtran pilots are participating in something called MEDIATION, not ARBITRATION. Thank God, Arbitration is not something addressed in the contract we are operating under.

Ask the Alaska pilots to explain the difference to you.

 

[PCL_128]

Hate to tell you, but there is no pro labor! Now, there is pandering to labor, but if their lips are moving, they are lying.

Their actions over the years have proven otherwise. Ask Occam how Clinton's chief counsel, Bruce Lindsey, helped them out in '98. Ask ALPA Leg Affairs about how easy it was for them to speak directly to President Clinton. The phone line was cut the day Bush came into office. This Administration refuses to even acknowledge ALPA's existence, while the previous administration went out of their way to help.

The second probelm you run into, is the fact that you are not who Obama and Clinton are talking about,you know, the hard working middle class. It isn't you, it is the guy making 25K a year working in construction or manufacturing, but not you!

Not the case at all. Organized labor is organized labor. They get their contributions from labor, so they do what they can for organized labor in order to keep the campaign contributions coming in.

Vote Obama in November.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Funny, I could have sworn y'all were in contract negotiaions, did you vote in a new, better paying contract. I must have missed it!

Hate to rain on your revisionist parade, Dizel, but the ALK pilots' pay cut was a result of arbitration.

Contract negotiations are currently underway and the Company's first pay offer was insulting.

Alaska pilots responded by over 400 of them picketing the annual shareholder's meeting, promising to strike if the Company doesn't come up with a better offer.

As you know, this is the FIRST time Alaska pilots have negotiated a contract unconstrained by a no-strike clause.

While it may take a couple more years before we are released for self-help, you can be assured that ALK has radicalized their pilot group to the point where a strike is virtually inevitable. Best estimate...summer of 2010 Alaska pilots will hit the bricks.

So, if you want to spew disinformation, please leave Alaska OUT of your diatribes.

 

[F9 Buff]

Every nickel you gave back will go to the management....congrats guys!!!

Again, if management has no personal financial reason to stay and right the ship, what is there to keep them from moving on to another company that is more stable?

They don't have a seniority list to worry about, they can move jobs without having to start at the bottom of another company's list.

You lose the people at the GO and F9 is done the second they give their notice.

Pilots (and aviation employees in general) need to figure out a way to gain that benifit. If you don't like the company you are working with or the base you got stuck in, then you should be able to move to another airline without having to give up your pay that your experience commands.