Frontier votes are in!!!! The pilots vote.....

[Pilotbob3]

YES!! 80% of them did!!!

unbeleiveable!!! Save the Airline!!! sheesh

 

[jackc]

I hope that's not true.

 

[samballs]

YES!! 80% of them did!!!

unbeleiveable!!! Save the Airline!!! sheesh

This is about what I expected from that group.

 

[elag777]

YES!! 80% of them did!!!

unbeleiveable!!! Save the Airline!!! sheesh

People are human and self preservation is tough to put aside in light of sending a message. F9 is a great airline with great people. They are hanging on. No surprise here. "Bail out" investment may also be contingent on consessions too.
Good luck F9!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Save the Airline!!! sheesh

If only the vote had any effect on "saving the airline." This hinges on oil prices, plain and simple.

 

[Dizel8]

The F9 pilots did what we all would have done, don't kid yourselves, look at the evidence. The big U started it, UAUA followed, AMR, DAL, NWA, ALK etc. all joined.

I think it is unfair to blame the F9 pilots for anything, they, like the rest of us, are holding on for dear life, can you blame them, would you truly have done differently? If you say yes, in 98% percent of the cases, you are full of horse manure. Internet bravado and all that!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

at $130 a barrel nothings going to help any airline...

 

[F9 Driver]

How 'bout you worry about your own business @ $131/bbl

Airline industry watchers wonder who will fold next
AirTran stock at 5-year low though company says it's strong

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/05/08Who's next?
That has rapidly become the question on many an airline-watcher's mind as one carrier after another has landed in bankruptcy or turned in its keys in recent weeks.
But while big carriers like Delta, United and Northwest airlines were the ones lining up at bankruptcy court after the 9/11 terrorist attacks sent the industry into a tailspin, this time skyrocketing fuel costs are hitting smaller carriers as well. The price of jet fuel, airlines' biggest expense, has jumped about 60 percent in the past year.
"Everyone is vulnerable. Cash is king," said Ray Neidl, a veteran analyst with Calyon Securities.
He predicted that most big airlines this year will likely avoid a crisis, particularly carriers with diverse markets and large cash reserves thanks to previous bankruptcy restructurings. Southwest, Delta, Northwest and Continental are among carriers that appear in better shape because they have adequate cash, significant fuel hedges that lock in prices or other advantages, according to various industry analysts.
Still, six weaker domestic airlines entered bankruptcy proceedings, shut down or announced plans to stop flying in recent weeks. The largest was Denver-based Frontier, which continues flying under Chapter 11 protection. Other casualties include the all business-class carrier Eos and ATA Airlines, both of which ceased operations in April.
The growing pressure has produced a succession of fare increases, along with fewer travel options as airlines cut capacity. Atlanta-based Delta plans to cut domestic capacity 10 percent this year, and Chief Executive Richard Anderson said last month airlines need to hike domestic fares by up to 20 percent to break even.
There are some bright spots, noted Neidl. Travel demand remains strong and airlines are doing an "excellent job" of controlling costs and boosting revenues, he said.
Still, six weaker domestic airlines entered Chapter 11 proceedings, shut down or announced plans to stop flying in recent weeks. The largest was Denver-based Frontier, which filed bankruptcy but continues flying.
Mix in the threat of a recession and shrinking access to capital, and it's "totally unpredictable" which airline could be next to head to court or the scrap heap, said airline analyst Robert Mann, with R.W. Mann & Co. in Port Washington, N.Y.
Even AirTran Airways, which put its growth plans into hyperdrive and made money amid Delta's struggles in recent years, seems to be in Wall Street's doghouse this time around.
The second-largest airline at the Atlanta airport, AirTran's share price dropped in April to a five-year low, apparently on concerns that it could follow Frontier into bankruptcy. The shares remain depressed despite AirTran executives' protests that the Orlando-based company is in better financial shape than Frontier. AirTran's shares are down about 40 percent over the past month.
Kevin Healy, AirTran's senior vice president, said the carrier's fuel bill has soared from about 20 percent of revenues in 2005 to roughly 35 percent last year, making it difficult to pursue its past growth pace, which sometimes topped 20 percent a year.
AirTran recently suspended growth plans for late 2008 and 2009 and sold aircraft. Last week, it completed the bulk of an offering of stock and related securities to raise $150 million and boost cash reserves to about $500 million.
AirTran is "somewhat more sensitive to fuel" prices, said Healy, but also has among the lowest non-fuel costs in the industry. "We actually are relatively still better positioned than the other carriers," he said.
Analyst Mann called the decline in AirTran's stock price "an overreaction." He said AirTran doesn't appear to be vulnerable to the type of cash crunch that pushed Frontier into Chapter 11. He said AirTran should benefit from capacity cuts and fare increases by Delta.
AirTran's move to shore up its cash reserves creates more breathing room, Mann said, but it also helped depress the airline's stock price by diluting its future earnings over a larger number of shares.
Another reason investors are jittery, said Mann, is because the widening credit crunch on Wall Street helped to precipitate some of the sudden airline shutdowns.
"The biggest single problem right now is the credit markets," he said.
That has put pressure on the hedge funds and private equity investors that have been lifelines for some airlines. Eos, for instance, filed for Chapter 11 protection and stopped flying on April 27 after investors refused to chip in more money.
Neidl, the Calyon analyst, left little room for optimism in a recent report titled "The Perfect Storm Revisits the Industry in 2008." He invoked the Bible's Four Horsemen of the Apocalyse to describe the challenges of "high fuel costs, recession, labor unrest and excessive government interference."
Neidl said the industry will shrink either through mergers or bankruptcies. Delta and Northwest announced plans last month to merge into the world's largest airline. United and US Airways are exploring merger options, and American and British Airways may also be looking at adding Continental as an alliance partner, according to reports. Continental is currently part of the SkyTeam alliance between Delta, Northwest, Air France and others.
"In 2008, we have an industry in crisis" in which airlines are switching to "survival mode," said Neidl.
"We believe that many of the airlines that enter Chapter 11 proceedings in this harsh economic environment will be like checking into the Hotel California where you never check out." said Neidl, referring to the former hit song by the Eagles. "The next bankruptcies will be for real."

 

[Flash]

Airline industry watchers wonder who will fold next
AirTran stock at 5-year low though company says it's strong

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/05/08Who's next?
That has rapidly become the question on many an airline-watcher's mind as one carrier after another has landed in bankruptcy or turned in its keys in recent weeks.
But while big carriers like Delta, United and Northwest airlines were the ones lining up at bankruptcy court after the 9/11 terrorist attacks sent the industry into a tailspin, this time skyrocketing fuel costs are hitting smaller carriers as well. The price of jet fuel, airlines' biggest expense, has jumped about 60 percent in the past year.
"Everyone is vulnerable. Cash is king," said Ray Neidl, a veteran analyst with Calyon Securities.
He predicted that most big airlines this year will likely avoid a crisis, particularly carriers with diverse markets and large cash reserves thanks to previous bankruptcy restructurings. Southwest, Delta, Northwest and Continental are among carriers that appear in better shape because they have adequate cash, significant fuel hedges that lock in prices or other advantages, according to various industry analysts.
Still, six weaker domestic airlines entered bankruptcy proceedings, shut down or announced plans to stop flying in recent weeks. The largest was Denver-based Frontier, which continues flying under Chapter 11 protection. Other casualties include the all business-class carrier Eos and ATA Airlines, both of which ceased operations in April.
The growing pressure has produced a succession of fare increases, along with fewer travel options as airlines cut capacity. Atlanta-based Delta plans to cut domestic capacity 10 percent this year, and Chief Executive Richard Anderson said last month airlines need to hike domestic fares by up to 20 percent to break even.
There are some bright spots, noted Neidl. Travel demand remains strong and airlines are doing an "excellent job" of controlling costs and boosting revenues, he said.
Still, six weaker domestic airlines entered Chapter 11 proceedings, shut down or announced plans to stop flying in recent weeks. The largest was Denver-based Frontier, which filed bankruptcy but continues flying.
Mix in the threat of a recession and shrinking access to capital, and it's "totally unpredictable" which airline could be next to head to court or the scrap heap, said airline analyst Robert Mann, with R.W. Mann & Co. in Port Washington, N.Y.
Even AirTran Airways, which put its growth plans into hyperdrive and made money amid Delta's struggles in recent years, seems to be in Wall Street's doghouse this time around.
The second-largest airline at the Atlanta airport, AirTran's share price dropped in April to a five-year low, apparently on concerns that it could follow Frontier into bankruptcy. The shares remain depressed despite AirTran executives' protests that the Orlando-based company is in better financial shape than Frontier. AirTran's shares are down about 40 percent over the past month.
Kevin Healy, AirTran's senior vice president, said the carrier's fuel bill has soared from about 20 percent of revenues in 2005 to roughly 35 percent last year, making it difficult to pursue its past growth pace, which sometimes topped 20 percent a year.
AirTran recently suspended growth plans for late 2008 and 2009 and sold aircraft. Last week, it completed the bulk of an offering of stock and related securities to raise $150 million and boost cash reserves to about $500 million.
AirTran is "somewhat more sensitive to fuel" prices, said Healy, but also has among the lowest non-fuel costs in the industry. "We actually are relatively still better positioned than the other carriers," he said.
Analyst Mann called the decline in AirTran's stock price "an overreaction." He said AirTran doesn't appear to be vulnerable to the type of cash crunch that pushed Frontier into Chapter 11. He said AirTran should benefit from capacity cuts and fare increases by Delta.
AirTran's move to shore up its cash reserves creates more breathing room, Mann said, but it also helped depress the airline's stock price by diluting its future earnings over a larger number of shares.
Another reason investors are jittery, said Mann, is because the widening credit crunch on Wall Street helped to precipitate some of the sudden airline shutdowns.
"The biggest single problem right now is the credit markets," he said.
That has put pressure on the hedge funds and private equity investors that have been lifelines for some airlines. Eos, for instance, filed for Chapter 11 protection and stopped flying on April 27 after investors refused to chip in more money.
Neidl, the Calyon analyst, left little room for optimism in a recent report titled "The Perfect Storm Revisits the Industry in 2008." He invoked the Bible's Four Horsemen of the Apocalyse to describe the challenges of "high fuel costs, recession, labor unrest and excessive government interference."
Neidl said the industry will shrink either through mergers or bankruptcies. Delta and Northwest announced plans last month to merge into the world's largest airline. United and US Airways are exploring merger options, and American and British Airways may also be looking at adding Continental as an alliance partner, according to reports. Continental is currently part of the SkyTeam alliance between Delta, Northwest, Air France and others.
"In 2008, we have an industry in crisis" in which airlines are switching to "survival mode," said Neidl.
"We believe that many of the airlines that enter Chapter 11 proceedings in this harsh economic environment will be like checking into the Hotel California where you never check out." said Neidl, referring to the former hit song by the Eagles. "The next bankruptcies will be for real."

Yeah, saw this when it originally came out, on May 5th.

 

[Lear70]

The F9 pilots did what we all would have done, don't kid yourselves, look at the evidence. The big U started it, UAUA followed, AMR, DAL, NWA, ALK etc. all joined. I think it is unfair to blame the F9 pilots for anything,

And that is why this industry is officially unrecoverable to anything CLOSE to what this career once was. Too many people with that same mentality. WHO, then, gets to say NO and reverse the trend? No one? Then the trend continues and pay cuts keep going and going and going with no end in sight. Brilliant.

they, like the rest of us, are holding on for dear life, can you blame them, would you truly have done differently? If you say yes, in 98% percent of the cases, you are full of horse manure. Internet bravado and all that!

Guess I'm the 2%. Have voted NO on concessionary contracts before, would do it again.

When the fu*k are people going to learn that PILOT WAGES DON'T MAKE OR BREAK A COMPANY. These pay cuts amount to 1/10th of 1% of the TOTAL CASM, for Christ's sake!!!

at $130 a barrel nothings going to help any airline...

Exactly right. What the F9 pilots just did equates to giving a guy a single dollar towards his $1,200 mortgage payment or $400 a month in utilities. It won't keep his lights on, his water running, or the bank from foreclosing.

For as smart as pilots think they are, they're a pretty stupid lot when it comes to understanding how their compensation package works in the grand scheme of an airline's overall cost structure.

Genius.

 

[LJDRVR]

Exactly right. What the F9 pilots just did equates to giving a guy a single dollar towards his $1,200 mortgage payment or $400 a month in utilities. It won't keep his lights on, his water running, or the bank from foreclosing.

For as smart as pilots think they are, they're a pretty stupid lot when it comes to understanding how their compensation package works in the grand scheme of an airline's overall cost structure.

Post of the day.

 

[bravodude]

And that is why this industry is officially unrecoverable to anything CLOSE to what this career once was. Too many people with that same mentality. WHO, then, gets to say NO and reverse the trend? No one? Then the trend continues and pay cuts keep going and going and going with no end in sight. Brilliant.


Guess I'm the 2%. Have voted NO on concessionary contracts before, would do it again.

When the fu*k are people going to learn that PILOT WAGES DON'T MAKE OR BREAK A COMPANY. These pay cuts amount to 1/10th of 1% of the TOTAL CASM, for Christ's sake!!!


Exactly right. What the F9 pilots just did equates to giving a guy a single dollar towards his $1,200 mortgage payment or $400 a month in utilities. It won't keep his lights on, his water running, or the bank from foreclosing.

For as smart as pilots think they are, they're a pretty stupid lot when it comes to understanding how their compensation package works in the grand scheme of an airline's overall cost structure.

Genius.

Lets just wait and see what the airtran pilot does.

 

[Lear70]

Lets just wait and see what the airtran pilot does.

Why should they do anything?

The company has over half a billion cash in the bank, forecasting a small profit for the quarter and a loss of around $50 Million for the year (including 1st quarter loss - about 10% of available cash on hand), and is hedged decently against higher oil prices for the rest of the year with more delivery slots to sell if they get that desperate.

p.s. this isn't really for you, as you already know this. This is for the other people who don't realize you mostly just like to stir the pot...

 

[curtis46]

I'm not walking in F9 pilots shoes so i don't no their motive.maybe the concession will allow 2 or3 months extra of operation enough time to downsize house and cars.
I'm downsizing myself as we speak so i can be confortable to say NO when they come asking for pay cut.

 

[Dizel8]

And that is why this industry is officially unrecoverable to anything CLOSE to what this career once was. Too many people with that same mentality. WHO, then, gets to say NO and reverse the trend? No one? Then the trend continues and pay cuts keep going and going and going with no end in sight. Brilliant.

This started a long time ago, Scabs at CAL, B-scales, two Ch.11 at U, robbing the pensions at U, UAL. Whatever the F9 pilots are doing doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the big scheme of things, Prater taking it back, give me a break, APA standing tall at this juncture, not going to happen.

Guess I'm the 2%. Have voted NO on concessionary contracts before, would do it again.

How long has the contract been dragging on at AAI, have the AAI pilots started a slowdown, work stoppage, CHAOS, strike, work to rule, no open time p/u, 2 mile an hour taxi? What exactly have the AAI pilots done, that truly showed their resolve, other than to keep working, move the airplanes and showed their displeasure by saying no, but still getting the job done? I bet management is truly displeased, not!

When the fu*k are people going to learn that PILOT WAGES DON'T MAKE OR BREAK A COMPANY. These pay cuts amount to 1/10th of 1% of the TOTAL CASM, for Christ's sake!!!

See above, so what exactly have you done, other than say no, but kept working. Have the AAI pilots said enough is enough, has the operation come to a grinding halt, are the a/c not flying?

For as smart as pilots think they are, they're a pretty stupid lot when it comes to understanding how their compensation package works in the grand scheme of an airline's overall cost structure.

We are all looking forward to AAI pilots setting the bar really high, industry leading and all that, topping SWA on the 737. Barring that, y'all should walk out and say thanks but no thanks, end of story.

 

[tico]

The F9 pilots did what we all would have done, don't kid yourselves, look at the evidence. The big U started it, UAUA followed, AMR, DAL, NWA, ALK etc. all joined.

I think it is unfair to blame the F9 pilots for anything, they, like the rest of us, are holding on for dear life, can you blame them, would you truly have done differently? If you say yes, in 98% percent of the cases, you are full of horse manure. Internet bravado and all that!

Dizel,
Do not include the Alaska pilots in your group. We lost 100 million a year due to a lopsided arbitration settlement by Richard Kasher.....When the company came back with a worthless pay raise in exchange for our work rules and retirement we voted it down....98% of eligible voters voted and 94 % told the company to stuff it........

 

[Dizel8]

Why should they do anything?

Funny, I could have sworn y'all were in contract negotiaions, did you vote in a new, better paying contract. I must have missed it!

 

[Dizel8]

Dizel,
Do not include the Alaska pilots in your group. We lost 100 million a year due to a lopsided arbitration settlement by Richard Kasher

But you gave up 100M correct?

Listen, I am not trying to give anyone a hard time, but I do think, that the F9 pilots are, in this case, singled out for something that has been going on for a long time.

No one has fallen on the sword in a long time, why should we expect the F9 pilots to do it, when plenty of pilots prior to has not?

 

[OurMoney1]

Family to feed, House to pay for, Car payment due.

I dont blame them for voting that in; they have families and are facing losing everything. Stand in their shoes for a day and you would probably do the same.

Reality tells us that their efforts are likely in vane; especially in light of the recent SWA expansion. I would be very surpirsed if they were able to secure financing considering the Herb Turd is circling.

At $130/barrel no one is safe, no one. I am praying for those guys and their families.

 

[rtmcfi]

Watch what this gets all of the F9 pilots a few months from now.

 

[Dizel8]

Watch what this gets all of the F9 pilots a few months from now.

Maybe something, maybe nothing. You pays your money and you takes your chance.

Look at the Aloha pillots flying the freight for no dinaros? !

 

[737 Pylt]

YES!! 80% of them did!!!

unbeleiveable!!! Save the Airline!!! sheesh

So bob, what would the JB pilots have done in the same situation? Their airline is under attack from LUV and they are just trying to survive, pay their bills and feed their families. Its real easy to point the finger and tell someone to "take one for the team" when that someone isn't you!
Sheesh!

737

 

[Mamma]

You get your facts straight. Alaska had an arbitrator impose our current contract. We did not "volunteer" for this but we sure as hell are going to fight to get it back. YOU can roll over like a lap-dog and give give give so management and wall street can line their pockets, but some of us are going to try and up the bar. It may be futile but at least men and women of conviction and courage are going to try. Think about this....if you raise ticket prices $1.00 per hour on flights with an average of 100 paying passengers on board and gave that to the pilots the captain could get a $65 an hour raise and the FO could get $35. Let the company keep the rest. Just my naive solution...but it is better than rolling over.

The F9 pilots did what we all would have done, don't kid yourselves, look at the evidence. The big U started it, UAUA followed, AMR, DAL, NWA, ALK etc. all joined.

I think it is unfair to blame the F9 pilots for anything, they, like the rest of us, are holding on for dear life, can you blame them, would you truly have done differently? If you say yes, in 98% percent of the cases, you are full of horse manure. Internet bravado and all that!

 

[Sgt. Hartman]

Its real easy to point the finger and tell someone to "take one for the team" when that someone isn't you!


737

That there is the best point ever made on FI.com. It also just about sums up every thread on this site!

Good luck Frontier Friends!

 

[waveflyer]

I like the Alaska pilots view. We get paid where we take a stand. All the majors took OFFENSIVE cuts- and now where are we? yeah... at the precipice of another ugly downturn and all our companies are no better off. We either learn the lesson that airplanes don't fly w/o pilots or we don't.
I just hate that i chose a career w/ so many WEAK-D!CKS
Your pay was low enough F9- but i do put the blame on all the majors flying for less than you, before you

 

[Lear70]

Funny, I could have sworn y'all were in contract negotiaions, did you vote in a new, better paying contract. I must have missed it!

Nope, but we voted DOWN a contract last September that was sub-standard with minuscule pay raises and BIG losses in QOL in just about every other section.

Like I said, not everyone caves, nor do they have to; it makes almost ZERO difference to the airline's bottom line, but go ahead, give concessions; management loves a sucker.

Wishing the folks at Alaska and AA the best of luck with their contract talks; those pilots seem to be the only ones "taking it back".

 

[Dizel8]

You get your facts straight.

Hey, I am just trying to defend the F9 pilots, don't work there, but I realize when push comes to shove, sometimes real bad stuff happens and people tend to make their choices accordingly.

When was the last time pilots truly took a stand? I cannot remember, probably when the Comair guys walked. Times of course was a bit different, but they did indeed walk.

U saw two Ch.11s in short order, the pilots got pillaged, gave up mostly everything, including the pension. UAL was next, they too got hosed, after all, U had already sacrificed the pension, did UAL have a choice?

My point isn't who did what or why, my point is, that most, when a knife is held at their throats, choose what appears to be survival. That is what the F9 pilots are doing, hoping to live another day, only those who are walking in their shoes, have the right to chastise them.

I am fully knowledgeable about what little their concessions matter in the grand scheme of things, on a CASM basis, it truly amounts to nothing. Probably less than $1 per ticket, but they are doing what they feel is something.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When was the last time pilots truly took a stand?

Indy Air pilots had the opportunity to take pay cuts to save the Airline... they said no... and the airline tanked...

Depends on how you look at it..... I say the paycuts would not have made a difference...

In addition, the F9 biz model is allot better than Indy.

 

[Dizel8]

Indy Air pilots had the opportunity to take pay cuts to save the Airline... they said no... and the airline tanked...

The Indy model was almost dead from the get go! The only people that made money on that deal was management. When they were asked, the airline was so far gone it was a given it would shut down, the only thing a paycut would have accomplished was better bonuses to the execs.

Is F9 going to make it, only if the investor story is true, otherwise I fear they do not have long. However, maybe the investor is Branson, in which case, they could indeed survive and prosper.

 

[pkober]

The F9 pilots did what we all would have done, don't kid yourselves, look at the evidence. The big U started it, UAUA followed, AMR, DAL, NWA, ALK etc. all joined.

Wrong. Not me. I believe that if you give management that money now you will never get it back. It doesn't matter what they promise. They lie.