The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[CopilotDoug]

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.Then maybe it's time for some new blood with a different set of core values...the same old fashioned values which are published ad nauseum in ALPA publications. You know: Learn to do More with Less.

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?The best Generals are the one leading the charge and then eating/sleeping in the field with the troops. What would be a better aid to Prater's goals: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez?It would go along way in reaching out to the membership. It would show the pilots the national officers are in, or thinking of getting in the same boat.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.Then maybe it's time for some new blood with a different set of core values...the same old fashioned values which are published ad nauseum in ALPA publications.

Right... got it.

2006 BOD.. the New blood and core values was elected: Prater.

It was your fellow pilots, the elected status reps, who were thinking about themsleves and thier MEC instead of thinking about being a National Union. Once again.. we come back to your fellow pilots.

But it is easier to blame "ALPA" then 56,000 guys.

You know: Learn to do More with Less.

Got it. Well if ALPA only cared about money then why did National or DW sign off on those concessionary contractors..bringing in less dues to ALPA. In addition, with the loss of USAIR, there is less money...

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less... but you probably don't think more..

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?The best Generals are the one leading the charge and then eating/sleeping in the field with the troops. What would be a better aid to Prater's goals: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?

I am not defending Prater just the office and the job.

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez?It would go along way in reaching out to the membership. It would show the pilots the national officers are in, or thinking of getting in the same boat.

Ok... lets go with "your need" to slash ALPA president salary and say its done.

How much? 30%, 40? 50? 60? 70% pay cut?

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?

So then he takes a pay cut. Then what?

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]

 

[CopilotDoug]

It was your fellow pilots, the elected status reps, who were thinking about themsleves and thier MEC instead of thinking about being a National Union. Once again.. we come back to your fellow pilots.

But it is easier to blame "ALPA" then 56,000 guys.







Got it. Well if ALPA only cared about money then why did National or DW sign off on those concessionary contractors..bringing in less dues to ALPA. In addition, with the loss of USAIR, there is less money...Because less money is better than no money for ALPA. Does Live to Fight Another Day ring a bell?

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less...How much was Prater's pay/benefits cut?



The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?Yes, and they vote on their own pay. That would be a very nice option for the Line Pilots.

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?Not when it comes to his (and the National Officers) compensation.

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.So you need to get someone's attention with money? How about the old fashioned values about doing it for the right reason?

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?Let the pilots vote on it.

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]I submit there will be 100% Total Pilot Unification. But since this hasn't been done yet, I cannot be proven wrong

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because less money is better than no money for ALPA. Does Live to Fight Another Day ring a bell?

Funny, that is how your fellow pilots voted at the majors during the BK era.

Why didn't they just say No to management and be real union men?

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less...How much was Prater's pay/benefits cut?

Obviously not enough...

The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?Yes, and they vote on their own pay. That would be a very nice option for the Line Pilots.

I wasn't aware that DoD Generals are elected.

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?Not when it comes to his (and the National Officers) compensation.

So this is the most important issue. Nothing else matters till you are happy with this....

What do you say to passengers that think you should take a pay cut.

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.So you need to get someone's attention with money? How about the old fashioned values about doing it for the right reason?

This is America. Not your favorite Hollywood movie. Please.

Is this a good ol' days ideal when ALPA was a real union. What president did it in the past for the right reason.

But please, stay focused. You want compensation cut. I am asking how much will make you happy?

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?Let the pilots vote on it.

They did. At the 2006 BOD.

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]I submit there will be 100% Total Pilot Unification. But since this hasn't been done yet, I cannot be proven wrong

So you are saying that LEC meeting attendance will go up to 100%.

Voting up to 100%

Picketing to 100%.

PAC to 100%


So that means if you took a pay cut you'd become a better pilot and your co pilot and FA's would respect and follow you more...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Funny, that is how your fellow pilots voted at the majors during the BK era.

Why didn't they just say No to management and be real union men? Why didn't National advise the pilots against voting for cuts? ALPA claims to be an organization, but what organization takes direct orders from the bottom-up? I'm not advocating that National should be a dictatorship, but they shouldn't be bystanders either.

I wasn't aware that DoD Generals are elected.No, they're not elected, and their working conditions making Prater's look like a walk in the park...all while doing it for a fraction of what Prater makes. Apparently they believe in something besides money and that's why they joined the military.

So this is the most important issue. Nothing else matters till you are happy with this...Sorry if that was implied. The list of problems which need to be corrected are numerous in amount.

What do you say to passengers that think you should take a pay cut. When an engine fails inflight, they'll be called to the cockpit to solve the problem.

If there's a printer paperjam in DC...who you gonna call???

Is this a good ol' days ideal when ALPA was a real union. What president did it in the past for the right reason. And the economy is SMOKIN' !!! (Not to imply that the President of the US has direct control over the economy of the US)

But please, stay focused. You want compensation cut. I am asking how much will make you happy? Well, it has been said that the majority of ALPA pilots are Regional. I'd be fine with giving Prater Senior Captain pay at your highest paid regional, just base salary.

They did. At the 2006 BOD. Did the line pilots vote, or the BOD?

So you are saying that LEC meeting attendance will go up to 100%.
Voting up to 100%
Picketing to 100%.
PAC to 100%
Absolutely! It hasn't been disproved yet has it?

So that means if you took a pay cut you'd become a better pilot and your co pilot and FA's would respect and follow you more...While flying a desk does have its inherent dangers, it is quite different from flying an AIRPLANE and therefore cannot be compared directly. What's the fatality rate for deskwork these days, anyway?


I'd like to know what you think would benefit Prater more: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Funny, that is how your fellow pilots voted at the majors during the BK era.

Why didn't they just say No to management and be real union men? Why didn't National advise the pilots against voting for cuts? ALPA claims to be an organization, but what organization takes direct orders from the bottom-up? I'm not advocating that National should be a dictatorship, but they shouldn't be bystanders either.

Because that is not how ALPA national and democracy works. Why do you think it should?

I wasn't aware that DoD Generals are elected.No, they're not elected, and their working conditions making Prater's look like a walk in the park...all while doing it for a fraction of what Prater makes. Apparently they believe in something besides money and that's why they joined the military.

Then perhaps you should join the military. Look, this is the market place, not the battlefield.

So this is the most important issue. Nothing else matters till you are happy with this...Sorry if that was implied. The list of problems which need to be corrected are numerous in amount.

Agreed. We have a process to address compensation. It was at the 2006BOD. And it was done so democratically, just like our system of gov't. In addition that is where we voted in the new blood with old core values....

What do you say to passengers that think you should take a pay cut. When an engine fails inflight, they'll be called to the cockpit to solve the problem.

If there's a printer paperjam in DC...who you gonna call???

See, this what I mean. Can you name three things ALPA has done to benefit the profession?

Is this a good ol' days ideal when ALPA was a real union. What president did it in the past for the right reason. And the economy is SMOKIN' !!! (Not to imply that the President of the US has direct control over the economy of the US)

Ok... so is it the economy or the union President.

But please, stay focused. You want compensation cut. I am asking how much will make you happy? Well, it has been said that the majority of ALPA pilots are Regional. I'd be fine with giving Prater Senior Captain pay at your highest paid regional, just base salary.

And what if we quit and you got a real regional Capt. Do you know anyone that would make a good union pilot president?

Should this regional Capt. pay be reimbursed for Wash DC expenses, food, housing and transportation?

They did. At the 2006 BOD. Did the line pilots vote, or the BOD?

Well, lets take a look at that: The line pilots certainly had access to their reps that they voted for. However there is a 2/3 chance that they didn't vote.

The same as a bill in congress, you vote for your congressman, then have access to him to influence his decision to vote. Is ALPA democracy being identical to US gov't democracy ok?

In addition, line pilots could have started a grassroots movement to slash compensation. How about... www.rjpilotsforprezpaycuts.com

I know, I know, American Idol is on, and this democracy thing is so inconvienent...

So you are saying that LEC meeting attendance will go up to 100%.
Voting up to 100%
Picketing to 100%.
PAC to 100%
Absolutely! It hasn't been disproved yet has it?

Wow that is deep. But I disagree.

So that means if you took a pay cut you'd become a better pilot and your co pilot and FA's would respect and follow you more...While flying a desk does have its inherent dangers, it is quite different from flying an AIRPLANE and therefore cannot be compared directly. What's the fatality rate for deskwork these days, anyway?


I'd like to know what you think would benefit Prater more: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

And yet, Prater is paid more than many pilots... seems our value system is screwed up in this country...

But this is where you and I differ... I think pilots pay should increase to Praters pay. The problem with you logic is, you want Praters pay to decrease. So when we are all in the dumps together, there is no one to pull anyone out.

There is no political clout without unity. That is the problem. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Which comes first.. political clout of unity. MLKjr's "dream" speech would have little value if a small group showed up. anywhere from 200,000 to 300,000 people showed up. The threat of a March prompted action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Jobs_and_Freedom

Representatives from each of the sponsoring organizations addressed the crowd from the podium. Dr. King gave his famous I Have a Dream speech which was carried live by the those TV stations covering the march. Floyd McKissick read James Farmer's speech because Farmer had been arrested during a protest in Louisiana; Farmer had written that the protests would not stop "until the dogs stop biting us in the South and rats stop biting us in the North."
The march is widely credited as a major factor leading to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the National Voting Rights Act of 1965.
​

See above... Farmer was in jail. Useless. While incarceration can be a rally point, it can be risky. Not sure if the public is ready for incarcerated pilot leaders.

See the last sentence of the above quote


May 2007- Airline Rally on the Mall in DC. 100 pilots show up...most of them elected reps and committee chairmen. No real grassroots intrests.

Consider if 20,000 angry pilots showed up. The next day Prater could call a meeting with the FAA, DOT, WH Chief of Staff, AFL-CIO, DOL, and ATA.

I bet you wouldn't be complaining about his salary then.

 

[flygirlqt]

Let's be clear, your disdain for ALPA will most likely result in you not particapting.

My disdain is for what ALPA has become. There is a large difference in your typical, automatic assumptions. You are right though that I will not be participating much longer as I am starting law school this fall. I'd rather watch 1.95% of my dues go to something worthwhile than flushing them down the toilet every month. Is that clear enough for you?

Did you picket Wall Street with the CAL pilots?

No. Not that it is any of your business, but just to placate you and stem any further possibility of your tried and true methods of ALPA defense of blaming th membership, I was working. Working under what I might add is a pathetic ALPA negotiated contract done under greed, theft, lies and scamming during the past ALPA regime at CAL.

Again, false.

I beg to differ.

If you want to insist that the ALPA President is still a fat cat, then go ahead.

Compared to his own constituents, he is. It is not just the president either. The entire salary and benefit structure is out of control up there.

We've hashed this out before, the Prez compensation is determined by the BOD, your peers, whom you elected, if you bothered to vote, which I doubt you did.

We have and you refused to acknowledge when I provided proof of some of the pay and benefits. Like the cost of living allowances given that exceed the salaries of many Captains with the union. Disgraceful and despicable. The whole structure within ALPA with the BOD is a convenient facade for the ALPA apologists to deny culpability.

Let's put these votes of compensation out to the general membership instead of the BOD. The membership are the people who are paying these salaries instead of being decided by a small group of people motivated by political favors within the organization. It is a system designed to insulate and reward themselves without any ramifications other than lip service to the membership.

Don't assume Rez. You tend, no you always, shift the blame to the membership in any way possible to slime over the issue that are rotting the foundation this union now stands on.

In all of your posts of blaming people about ALPA's problems, I have rarely seen a written word by you about what should be done to fix this mess called ALPA. Go ahead and give it a try and let's see some of your ideas for once without finding fault with others.

In addition, does the ALPA Prez have to be a line pilot? Tell me what you think the answer is...

No. Is Randy Babit a good enough example for you?

Regardless, it is a real shame that you will not bother to defend the profession because you are a one issue girl. You'll sit by despite ALPA problems, for you it is compensation, and watch your own house burn down, blaming other... your choice... but it sure is wacked..

Defend the profession like ALPA has been doing over the years? The only thing ALPA has been defending is the politically correct, mutual admiration society that exists in DC. The junkets, the expense accounts, the pay, car allowances. It is obscene given the financial trauma that has been inflicted upon the membership.

The "one issue" of grotesque pay and benefits is only the tip of the iceberg with the problems within ALPA. Those national pay and benefits are a slap in the face to every dues paying member being forced to subsidize those salaries while the 56,000 members continue to witness an ineffectual, lame duck organization that is alienating pilots by the thousands with their lack of vision and effective representation.

ALPA is burning their own house down with the total disconnect from the leadership to the line pilot. The loss of LCC should be a huge wake up call that will go unheeded. Why? Because ALPA knows in the end their income is secure with mandatory dues payments. That is all ALPA is concerned with these days. It is a money machine that has lost focus with it's original purpose. The age 65 debacle is a perfect example of insult and failure to abide by the wishes of the membership at large.

And why do keep bashing PCL128?

Because he is a hypocrite. It is one thing to admit fault, however to continually pass judgment on others given his history makes his opinions all the more insignificant.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.


Try this folks, it works great and lasts a long time

 

[CopilotDoug]

Flygirl, great post.

Because that is not how ALPA national and democracy works. Why do you think it should? To make a point: At the top, it's not about the right thing, it's about the money! National has effectively put themselves out of touch with the membership. Flygirl hit the nail on the head with her statement about insulation and rewards being designed into the system.

Look, this is the market place, not the battlefield. Don't tell that to the managers who've applied the strategies of Sun Tsu to their business practices.

See, this what I mean. The gains returned by pilot money invested into ALPA has dwindled over the years.

Ok... so is it the economy or the union President. That's a very nice facade: Tout the democracy line while while deflecting all responsibility/accountability. Prater and his cronies at the top have applied their political savvy well.

Should this regional Capt. pay be reimbursed for Wash DC expenses, food, housing and transportation? Nothing over and above what his contract guarantee is. He's here for his pilots...not himself.

Well, lets take a look at that: The line pilots certainly had access to their reps that they voted for. However there is a 2/3 chance that they didn't vote. The reps are covering their own collective asses. They are there for the all inclusive buffett paid for by the line pilots. Would they heed any suggestions concerning pay from their members? No.

Is ALPA democracy being identical to US gov't democracy ok? It's a double standard wrapped in an American flag.

I know, I know, American Idol is on, and this democracy thing is so inconvienent...Is the ALPA model Democratic or Capitalistic?

Wow that is deep. But I disagree.
Proof?

seems our value system is screwed up in this country...Agreed

But this is where you and I differ... I think pilots pay should increase to Praters pay. I'll agree with this.

The problem with you logic is, you want Praters pay to decrease. So when we are all in the dumps together, there is no one to pull anyone out. In theory, I agree, but it'd only work in an ideal world. How many more years of declining pay does it take to realize that the current system in place is not working? The horse has found the stockpile of carrots, and the stick has been traded in for some magic beans.

I bet you wouldn't be complaining about his salary then. I am not opposed to rewarding performance and productivity. But the pay comes AFTER services are rendered. The current system in place provides the rewards up front before anything is accomplished, much like the CEO contracts Prater attacks. Hypocritical???

 

[PCL_128]

CopilotDoug, have you ever volunteered your time to your union? Have you ever run for elected office? What is your union experience?

 

[flygirlqt]

Flygirl, great post.

Thank you. Yours are very accurate as well, but I am afraid it will not sink in with some. It is refreshing to see there are others that think like we do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My disdain is for what ALPA has become. There is a large difference in your typical, automatic assumptions. You are right though that I will not be participating much longer as I am starting law school this fall. I'd rather watch 1.95% of my dues go to something worthwhile than flushing them down the toilet every month. Is that clear enough for you?

You'll be free of ALPA and live happily ever after?

No. Not that it is any of your business, but just to placate you and stem any further possibility of your tried and true methods of ALPA defense of blaming th membership, I was working. Working under what I might add is a pathetic ALPA negotiated contract done under greed, theft, lies and scamming during the past ALPA regime at CAL.

If the CBA is so bad, then why did you agree to work under it?

I beg to differ.

Free will

Compared to his own constituents, he is. It is not just the president either. The entire salary and benefit structure is out of control up there.

And when it changes then you'll life and career will be better?

We have and you refused to acknowledge when I provided proof of some of the pay and benefits. Like the cost of living allowances given that exceed the salaries of many Captains with the union. Disgraceful and despicable. The whole structure within ALPA with the BOD is a convenient facade for the ALPA apologists to deny culpability.

Why are cost of living allowances that taxes are paid on an issue?

Let's put these votes of compensation out to the general membership instead of the BOD. The membership are the people who are paying these salaries instead of being decided by a small group of people motivated by political favors within the organization. It is a system designed to insulate and reward themselves without any ramifications other than lip service to the membership.

They have been put out to memebership via the status reps.

With member voting participation rates so low... the membership isn't responsible enough... sorry, I wish they were, and I hope they wil be...

In addition, if compensation really was an issue we'd hear more about it, rather than a few angry people on moniker message boards.

Finally, is they way we elected reps and send them to congress flawed?

Don't assume Rez. You tend, no you always, shift the blame to the membership in any way possible to slime over the issue that are rotting the foundation this union now stands on.

Cause the union used to be great, and now its rotten.

In all of your posts of blaming people about ALPA's problems, I have rarely seen a written word by you about what should be done to fix this mess called ALPA. Go ahead and give it a try and let's see some of your ideas for once without finding fault with others.

So more particaption, ownership and voting by the members is no good?

So if 50,000 pilots marched on Wash DC that would be of no value?

No. Is Randy Babit a good enough example for you?

Not what I meant....

Defend the profession like ALPA has been doing over the years? The only thing ALPA has been defending is the politically correct, mutual admiration society that exists in DC. The junkets, the expense accounts, the pay, car allowances. It is obscene given the financial trauma that has been inflicted upon the membership.

Thus the number one problem

The "one issue" of grotesque pay and benefits is only the tip of the iceberg with the problems within ALPA. Those national pay and benefits are a slap in the face to every dues paying member being forced to subsidize those salaries while the 56,000 members continue to witness an ineffectual, lame duck organization that is alienating pilots by the thousands with their lack of vision and effective representation.

So those national guys do nothing... they have no value...

ALPA is burning their own house down with the total disconnect from the leadership to the line pilot. The loss of LCC should be a huge wake up call that will go unheeded. Why? Because ALPA knows in the end their income is secure with mandatory dues payments. That is all ALPA is concerned with these days. It is a money machine that has lost focus with it's original purpose. The age 65 debacle is a perfect example of insult and failure to abide by the wishes of the membership at large.

Agreed.... but what is the solution? I say 50,000 pilots in DC. but you won't do anything.

Because he is a hypocrite. It is one thing to admit fault, however to continually pass judgment on others given his history makes his opinions all the more insignificant.

And so do you and I.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Flygirl, great post.

It sure does feel good! But there is no solution. You guys offer nothing but anger and regression. That is the issue. I am not saying your points are not valid, but if you are to complain then offer solution...

Because that is not how ALPA national and democracy works. Why do you think it should? To make a point: At the top, it's not about the right thing, it's about the money! National has effectively put themselves out of touch with the membership. Flygirl hit the nail on the head with her statement about insulation and rewards being designed into the system.

You think because the ALPA national guys aren't making your life better then they are flawed. Yet you won't work to make your life better.

Yet you have no clue what they do.

What do the ALPA national guys do... do you know?

Look, this is the market place, not the battlefield. Don't tell that to the managers who've applied the strategies of Sun Tsu to their business practices.

So march the Wash DC mall.

See, this what I mean. The gains returned by pilot money invested into ALPA has dwindled over the years.

Just tell me what the membership responsibilities are.

Ok... so is it the economy or the union President. That's a very nice facade: Tout the democracy line while while deflecting all responsibility/accountability. Prater and his cronies at the top have applied their political savvy well.

I'd like to know what you think the responsbilities are of a union pilot

Should this regional Capt. pay be reimbursed for Wash DC expenses, food, housing and transportation? Nothing over and above what his contract guarantee is. He's here for his pilots...not himself.

Wow. Unreal. Thus he would have to pay have the glorious honor of representing you.

Regional Capt Pay $80K
Cost of living in Wash DC 100,00K
Taking out a loan to pay 20K to serve CopilotDoug...

Priceless.


So you think being the GIA of unions is the way to go.

Well, lets take a look at that: The line pilots certainly had access to their reps that they voted for. However there is a 2/3 chance that they didn't vote. The reps are covering their own collective asses. They are there for the all inclusive buffett paid for by the line pilots. Would they heed any suggestions concerning pay from their members? No.

Once again, you defer the responsibility of union members to vote. Do you reject democracy?

Is ALPA democracy being identical to US gov't democracy ok? It's a double standard wrapped in an American flag.

The US gov't?

I know, I know, American Idol is on, and this democracy thing is so inconvienent...Is the ALPA model Democratic or Capitalistic?

ALPA sotck is UP!! Those fat cats!

Wow that is deep. But I disagree.
Proof?

So if pilots take a pay cut, they don't do better, but if ALPA takes pay cuts suddenly memebers are effective....

seems our value system is screwed up in this country...Agreed

And I gather that you don't value democracy and individual responsibility.

But this is where you and I differ... I think pilots pay should increase to Praters pay. I'll agree with this.

So lets work to raise our pay, not bring down anothers. This is the whole intent.

The problem with you logic is, you want Praters pay to decrease. So when we are all in the dumps together, there is no one to pull anyone out. In theory, I agree, but it'd only work in an ideal world. How many more years of declining pay does it take to realize that the current system in place is not working? The horse has found the stockpile of carrots, and the stick has been traded in for some magic beans.

Your participation is required for Praters political clout. Without it... we are screwed.

I bet you wouldn't be complaining about his salary then. I am not opposed to rewarding performance and productivity. But the pay comes AFTER services are rendered. The current system in place provides the rewards up front before anything is accomplished, much like the CEO contracts Prater attacks. Hypocritical???

I am in different to Prater, so I won't defend the guy.


All pilots like you do is measure performance based on your own personal world. Rarely the collective. I say most members have no real understanding what these guys do...

An objective look is rarely taken.

And again... How did ALPA national get elected? They got elected by status reps. How did status reps get elected?

Well if CopilotDoug, Flygirlqt and I were in a room only one of us would have voted for those status reps.

But this isn't about your individual responsbility is it? That isn't somethig you can control is it? That isn't something you can fix right now.

Getting involved is out of your realm. Free will is not yours.


All your and flygirlqt post do is defer individual repsonsibility.

Is voting irrelevent in ALPA?

 

[lookin4better]

Didn't you already cut that off to go to work for Gulfstream?

I just spit my beer all over my computer! That is some FUNNY stuff!!

 

[CopilotDoug]

You think because the ALPA national guys aren't making your life better then they are flawed. The ALPA system is flawed! ALPA was formed under a regulated airline system. Under deregulation it is dog-eat-dog and the airlines are all competing for the same piece of the pie. The only way to go is to have seperate inhouse Unions representing the interests of its respective airline. ALPA, in the meantime would like to convince you that the pressing issues are not pay, benefits, and retirement (which many are ending their careers without) but issues like Open Skies agreements.

I'd like to know what you think the responsbilities are of a union pilot. To serve the cookies and punch at the next LEC meeting???

Wow. Unreal. Thus he would have to pay have the glorious honor of representing you. What's the matter? He has every intention of taking it back and then some doesn't he??? Give it a year or two and he'll more than be able to afford the D.C. lifestyle under thge contracts he helps negotiate.

Once again, you defer the responsibility of union members to vote. Do you reject democracy? There's the D-word again. To imply that the members are taking place in the democratic process vicariously through their elected reps is misleading. Ask any pilot what their top three concerns are with their career. Now go ask Prater what the top three issues are he is working on today. But the membership is stoopid...they don't know what is good for them...

ALPA sotck is UP!! Those fat cats! No, just their paychecks...and Fat Cats is a nicer term than I would have used.

So if pilots take a pay cut, they don't do better, but if ALPA takes pay cuts suddenly memebers are effective...Just asking the guys at the top to walk the walk. They villify corporate CEO's for their exorbitant pay, are we to let theirs go unchecked?

All pilots like you do is measure performance based on your own personal world. Rarely the collective. I say most members have no real understanding what these guys do...Unless ALPA is getting regulation started again , we're not collective.

And again... How did ALPA national get elected? They got elected by status reps. How did status reps get elected? Ahhhh...flawless by design. Did Elliott Spitzer ever once mention, during his campaign, anything about misappropriating taxpayer dollars for a high priced hooker? Because he was voted in by a democracy you know. It must have been the will of the voters!

But this isn't about your individual responsbility is it? That isn't somethig you can control is it? That isn't something you can fix right now. How do you vote on option (d) when only (a) through (c) are given to you?

Look at the turnout the USAir East pilots voted with. Good or bad, they voted, and it was with a little more than a 33% turnout. What caused so many Skywest pilots to turn out and vote for or against ALPA? How about the Colgan group? How about the Pinnacle Pilots voting for the right to strike?

Pilots are interested in their careers, just not necessarily the ALPA version handed to them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You think because the ALPA national guys aren't making your life better then they are flawed. The ALPA system is flawed! ALPA was formed under a regulated airline system. Under deregulation it is dog-eat-dog and the airlines are all competing for the same piece of the pie. The only way to go is to have seperate inhouse Unions representing the interests of its respective airline. ALPA, in the meantime would like to convince you that the pressing issues are not pay, benefits, and retirement (which many are ending their careers without) but issues like Open Skies agreements.

So instead of having everyone as part of the same union, you think we should increase the dog eat dog paradigm by everyone going to seperate in house unions.

With increased lack of communication the fighting would get worse. Its bad now within ALPA, but you want to increase it?

I'd like to know what you think the responsbilities are of a union pilot. To serve the cookies and punch at the next LEC meeting???

I haven't read the rest of your post as I respond... shall I hope? The audacity!!

Wow. Unreal. Thus he would have to pay have the glorious honor of representing you. What's the matter? He has every intention of taking it back and then some doesn't he??? Give it a year or two and he'll more than be able to afford the D.C. lifestyle under thge contracts he helps negotiate.

I guess it depends on how the membership votes. Should ALPA remove voting from its structure?

Once again, you defer the responsibility of union members to vote. Do you reject democracy? There's the D-word again. To imply that the members are taking place in the democratic process vicariously through their elected reps is misleading. Ask any pilot what their top three concerns are with their career. Now go ask Prater what the top three issues are he is working on today. But the membership is stoopid...they don't know what is good for them...

The top three concerns of any pilot is

me

me

me.

Multiply that times 56,000 and you can see how everyone is pulling in a different direction. No wonder we can't make anyone happy.

ALPA stock is UP!! Those fat cats! No, just their paychecks...and Fat Cats is a nicer term than I would have used.

Meanwhile management and gov't and laughing at you and me as we infight.

So if pilots take a pay cut, they don't do better, but if ALPA takes pay cuts suddenly memebers are effective...Just asking the guys at the top to walk the walk. They villify corporate CEO's for their exorbitant pay, are we to let theirs go unchecked?

I didn't realize that employees had a say in CEO pay, much less a vote. You think we should stop voting at ALPA?

All pilots like you do is measure performance based on your own personal world. Rarely the collective. I say most members have no real understanding what these guys do...Unless ALPA is getting regulation started again , we're not collective.

So you wouldn't march on DC?

And again... How did ALPA national get elected? They got elected by status reps. How did status reps get elected? Ahhhh...flawless by design. Did Elliott Spitzer ever once mention, during his campaign, anything about misappropriating taxpayer dollars for a high priced hooker? Because he was voted in by a democracy you know. It must have been the will of the voters!

Not happy? Do something about it? Or maybe you feel you can't. That you are powerless, a victim.

Are you a victim?

But this isn't about your individual responsbility is it? That isn't somethig you can control is it? That isn't something you can fix right now. How do you vote on option (d) when only (a) through (c) are given to you?

What are your personal own LEC voter and LEC meeting particaption rates for 2007?

Look at the turnout the USAir East pilots voted with. Good or bad, they voted, and it was with a little more than a 33% turnout. What caused so many Skywest pilots to turn out and vote for or against ALPA? How about the Colgan group? How about the Pinnacle Pilots voting for the right to strike?

Pilots are interested in their careers, just not necessarily the ALPA version handed to them.

But how did the West turn out?

Skywest pilots turned out?

Colgan? Four guys went apathetic.

PCL, they are mad and ready to use ALPA. Plus they got 2MM is support for ALPA to strike. It cost money to strike. If everyone went in house unions there would mutual support. Get it.


The point is this: democracy is slow and boring. Going to LEC meetings and voting is like studying weeks before for a test. Try and cram the night before and failure is common.

C'mon lets face it... too many pilots ignore ALPA affairs at their LEC. Thier career situational awareness is weak. They have no clue. Suddenly something happens and they try to apply limited information to a complex situation all combined with the matra of "what's in it for me".... "how is this going to effect me"

The reason why section 6 TA's have a high voting % is because the TA directly effects "The Me".

What is your real concern with ALPA national compensation? Too much of your dues money going into thier pocket? Not getting bang for your buck? No value?

Well, what would have to change in order for National compensation to have value?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Pilots Reject Democracy?
I caught a snipet of Defense Sec Gates commencement speech in USAToday. So I sourced the entire speech.

As workers Corp America is a totalitarian regime. There is only one choice. Work or quit. There is no due process, no say. Has your company ever asked for and seriously considered your imput on policy that significantly effected you? Maybe, but that is few are far between. Unions, in this country, however, are democracies. They are self government.

Currently, union democracy particaption rates are in line with American culture. About 30% of Americans and union members bother to participate in the lection of thier representatives.

Is democracy in union activities un-American? As Americans do we not have duty to embrace and sustain democracy regardless of the organization that uses democracy?

Here is the link for the full speech. I've cut and paste a portion. The first paragraph below applies to the future of the Air Line Pilot profession via union democracy.

Plato: One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1152

While volunteering for a good cause is important, it is not enough. This country will only survive and progress as a democracy if its citizens—young and old alike—take an active role in its political life as well.


Sad to say, that precious franchise, purchased and preserved by the blood of hundreds of thousands of Americans your age and younger from 1776 to today, has not been adequately appreciated or exercised by your generation.


In 2004, with our nation embroiled in two difficult and controversial wars, the voting percentage was only 42 percent for those aged 18 to 24.
Ed Muskie, former senator and Secretary of State, once said that “you have the God given right to kick the government around.” And it starts with voting, and becoming involved in campaigns. If you think that too many politicians are feckless and corrupt, then go out and help elect different ones. Or go out and run yourself. But you must participate, or else the decisions that affect your life and the future of our country will be made for you—and without you.


So vote. And volunteer. But also consider doing something else: dedicating at least part of your life in service to our country.
I entered public life more than 40 years ago, and no one is more familiar with the hassles, frustrations and sacrifices of public service than I am. Government is, by design of the Founding Fathers, slow, unwieldy and almost comically inefficient. Will Rogers used to say: “I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.”


These frustrations are inherent in a system of checks and balances, of divisions and limitations of power. Our Founding Fathers did not have efficiency as their primary goal. They designed a system intended to sustain and protect liberty for the ages. Getting things done in government is not easy, but it’s not supposed to be.



I will close with a quote from a letter John Adams sent to one of their other sons, Thomas Boylston Adams. And he wrote:“Public business, my son, must always be done by somebody. It will be done by somebody or another. If wise men decline it, others will not; if honest men refuse it, others will not.”



Will the wise and the honest among you come help us serve the American people?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... for one day, I wish you were an Aloha Airlines pilot who found himself without a job and watched what mighty ALPA National has done for Council 80 and one of the oldest ALPA groups in ALPA.

You would drop this whole mantra.

ALPA is in business to collect dues. It might use its help here and there, but it is NOT a union. They were more concerned about getting sued than actually defending the rights of Aloha Airlines pilots. Check this out... the company sells off a piece of the airline (cargo), and now instead of honoring our contract, they offer INTERVIEWS for pilots.

Where's ALPA National? Someplace in Herndon writing memos and "strongly worded condemnations."

Yet, when the strike vote overwhelmingly passed, and Aloha pilots were gonna walk out and say BURN THIS F**KER DOWN! ALPA lawyers were pleading with us not to do it because it would open ALPA for a potential lawsuit even though our airline was in fact shut down, our cargo was operating due to the unique nature of Hawaii cargo, YET WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GONNA PAY or IF they are gonna pay the pilots. Yet ALPA wanted us to show up for work.

You know what Rez? I want that entire organization to come crumbling down. Why? Because they NO LONGER SERVE A PURPOSE!!! They've proven it in how they've handled our dilemma at Aloha.

Another thing Rez... you kept harping about impeding changes in our industry, the globalization, how we have to change in order to be a part of a change......
I agree with you. In order to do so, we need ALPA to disappear because it is a 1940's relic that is still flying in the 21st century. Like you said, it's time to change. Unfortunately, you can't slap Honeywell FMS, EFIS, and full glass cockpit setup into a DC-3 and continue flying transcons. It just doesn't make any sense.

ALPA is like a radial engine that's trying to survive in a turbofan era. Great for the history books, but that's about it.

 

[labbats]

Rez, you're arguing for the ALPA that was... not the one that is.

I can't say the rest any better than those before me have.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here is one mans opinon of ALPA National at work for him as his airline was shutting down.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1580834#post1580834

"Rez... for one day, I wish you were an Aloha Airlines pilot who found himself without a job and watched what mighty ALPA National has done for Council 80 and one of the oldest ALPA groups in ALPA.

You would drop this whole mantra.

I've already been furloughed twice and displaced twice. I've probably started over more times than many in the last seven years: wanna know the difference? I am not a whining cry baby that seeks to blame others for my situation. I made my choices and I'll live with them.

ALPA is in business to collect dues. It might use its help here and there, but it is NOT a union. They were more concerned about getting sued than actually defending the rights of Aloha Airlines pilots. Check this out... the company sells off a piece of the airline (cargo), and now instead of honoring our contract, they offer INTERVIEWS for pilots.

Gee, I read about that in Flying the Line Vol, One. Why are you suprised. and what do you expect ALPA national to do? And why do you expect it? Cause all of a sudden its YOU feeling pain?

Did you speak up for ME when I was getting furloughed? I never recalled any outcry from ALOHA pilots when my airline FURLOUGHED me... OUT OF SENIORITY!!

I certianly didn't blame, YOU, Aloha, other ALPA pilots or ALPA national for federal laws and a system designed to screw workers.

I lived you pain. But I am still here trying to defend the profession...often times against cry babies with ALPA pins on thier tie.

Where's ALPA National? Someplace in Herndon writing memos and "strongly worded condemnations."

This is a business, and YOU are an employee!!!!​

You own nothing, you're entitled to nothing more than your union contract, (as long as a bk judge says so)​

Again, it might serve you well to understand some basic capitalistic principles...Unions don't run business. Management will always win in an emergency. Aloha ran out of CASH, just like you running out of blood, the body dies. Wall street doesn't care how prompt you've been with your dues payments.​

You're a pawn.​

Tell me how an in house union would have saved them...I'm sure they're "all ears". Nice try union buster...you'd think you would become accustom to being shot down by now.​

I doubt you'll ever learn, your East Coast sense of entitlement will blind you into the unemployment line.​

Yet, when the strike vote overwhelmingly passed, and Aloha pilots were gonna walk out and say BURN THIS F**KER DOWN! ALPA lawyers were pleading with us not to do it because it would open ALPA for a potential lawsuit even though our airline was in fact shut down, our cargo was operating due to the unique nature of Hawaii cargo, YET WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GONNA PAY or IF they are gonna pay the pilots. Yet ALPA wanted us to show up for work.

So.... who made the choice? Your MEC or your lawyers? Or ALPA National?

You know what Rez? I want that entire organization to come crumbling down. Why? Because they NO LONGER SERVE A PURPOSE!!! They've proven it in how they've handled our dilemma at Aloha.

Or you could get educated.

Another thing Rez... you kept harping about impeding changes in our industry, the globalization, how we have to change in order to be a part of a change......
I agree with you. In order to do so, we need ALPA to disappear because it is a 1940's relic that is still flying in the 21st century. Like you said, it's time to change. Unfortunately, you can't slap Honeywell FMS, EFIS, and full glass cockpit setup into a DC-3 and continue flying transcons. It just doesn't make any sense.

So lets fight for change. Quite often, too often, one has to fight thier own people with the organization. It is a part of organizational structure, not exclusive to ALPA.

ALPA is like a radial engine that's trying to survive in a turbofan era. Great for the history books, but that's about it."

I agree. But what is the solution? Let's hang a turbofan on and rid us of the radial.

What is your solution? Zero representation?

In addition, YOU have done everything you can to better your union and yourself?