The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[Freight Dog]

Did you speak up for ME when I was getting furloughed? I never recalled any outcry from ALOHA pilots when my airline FURLOUGHED me... OUT OF SENIORITY!!

I certianly didn't blame, YOU, Aloha, other ALPA pilots or ALPA national for federal laws and a system designed to screw workers.

I lived you pain. But I am still here trying to defend the profession...often times against cry babies with ALPA pins on thier tie.

Rez, nobody is blaming YOU. I blame ALPA for not changing with times FOR THE BENEFIT OF PILOTS. It has become a bureaucracy that's of no help. I blame them for NOT standing up and changing their f**ked up fundamentals early on truly for the pilot benefit. ALPA is FUBAR (F**ked up beyond all repair). It's time to send that ol' bird out to Mojave.

As for me, it's not a pain anymore. It's a relief! I'm done with that union bullsh*t. Open your eyes, man! What profession??! The one where your copilots work for less than my unemployment wage? The one where pensions literally get stripped and ALPA is worried about lawsuits more so than making walking the walk?

Give it a rest, Rez...

So.... who made the choice? Your MEC or your lawyers? Or ALPA National?

How's this for an answer... strong armed by ALPA National's LAWYERS to go to work!

Or you could get educated.

Oh I got educated alright. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME! Looks to me like you didn't learn a thing, Rez as you keep getting fooled.

Let's hang a turbofan on and rid us of the radial.

What is your solution? Zero representation?

In addition, YOU have done everything you can to better your union and yourself?

Yes, my solution is that I represent myself. I negotiate my own deal. I know and represent my OWN worth. My employer closes its doors, I go fly the same plane somewhere else FOR SAME MONEY, not taking a 70k paycut to fly the same damn thing with just a different logo. Yes Rez, ALPA has outlived its usefulness. It needs to die and we need to let it.

Rez, the fundamental difference between me and you is that I've learned from a mistake. You haven't. You are hellbent on trying to have a radial engine adapted to present day use. It just doesn't work. Time to hang it up and start over. Of all the people, you should understand it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I didn't realize that employees had a say in CEO pay, much less a vote. You think we should stop voting at ALPA? Nice try at sidestepping the issue. Why not put Compensation for Officers to a membership vote? It is, after all, about the will of the voters, right?

What are your personal own LEC voter and LEC meeting particaption rates for 2007? It's not about me, Rez...it's about a Union whose foundation was built during regulation. Seniority does not work in today's unregulated market. It works against the pilot.

What is your real concern with ALPA national compensation? It's the double-standard hypocrisy of the situation. The officers at national level are there for, first and foremost, themselves. They have taken care of themselves financially while the membership twists in the wind. They adopt the same pay practices of the CEO's they attack. If the membership asks "what's in it for me?" they get a browbeating in the ALPA magazine by Chris Beebe about being an Apathetic Victim. It is a very nice facade, as GTgirl pointed out.

Well, what would have to change in order for National compensation to have value? I'll let my fellow pilots answer this

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, nobody is blaming YOU. I blame ALPA for not changing with times FOR THE BENEFIT OF PILOTS. It has become a bureaucracy that's of no help. I blame them for NOT standing up and changing their f**ked up fundamentals early on truly for the pilot benefit. ALPA is FUBAR (F**ked up beyond all repair). It's time to send that ol' bird out to Mojave.

My point! You have to blame someone. Something. Perfect for our society of victims. Everyone is a victim.

When I was fuloughed I didn't blame anyone. I reject cry baby status. I put the past behind me and moved and and made my own choices and lived by them.

Millions of Americans are being forced to re invent themsleves. Re educate and learn new skills... all because of our dynamic economy... that is life... they way it is.... why should we airline pilots be different? cause we are special? We have the glorious fix all ALPA?

As for me, it's not a pain anymore. It's a relief! I'm done with that union bullsh*t. Open your eyes, man! What profession??! The one where your copilots work for less than my unemployment wage? The one where pensions literally get stripped and ALPA is worried about lawsuits more so than making walking the walk?

Of course you are done with it. The airline you choose to work for couldn't compete... so they shut the doors. But wait... in America we love free market competition and captialism. We love winners and losers. So what is your problem? Is this idea of America new to you?

But be clear.... I reject these ideals in America, I believe in being your brothers keeper. Helping everyone. I reject dragging everyone down to a lower level so the lowest feels better.

And I reject whining and blame game attitudes. I didn't do it when I was furloughed..

Give it a rest, Rez...

I can't. I haven't been furloughed yet... (for the 3rd time). So until I do I am going to fight. When an engine fails and then a HYD system, I don't start blaming, crying, whinning and give up. I fight until the jet digs a crater... and just before I vaporize I'll tell myself I tried my best and hope my family repsects who I was... not a victim...

How's this for an answer... strong armed by ALPA National's LAWYERS to go to work!

So ALPA lawyers run your MEC?

Oh I got educated alright. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME! Looks to me like you didn't learn a thing, Rez as you keep getting fooled.

You and Bush... and least you said it right...

Maybe I am a fool, but I am not a self made victim.

Yes, my solution is that I represent myself. I negotiate my own deal. I know and represent my OWN worth. My employer closes its doors, I go fly the same plane somewhere else FOR SAME MONEY, not taking a 70k paycut to fly the same damn thing with just a different logo. Yes Rez, ALPA has outlived its usefulness. It needs to die and we need to let it.

Maybe that is what you want. We still need repsresentation...

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

​

​

What were you doing during the good years? Were you understanding the plight of guys like me who getting furoughed out of seniority? Were you asking yourself, 'what if that happens to us... how can we mitigate the losses... Since times are good, lets build our defenses and war chest... and prepare for the down times... ' Were you thinking like that?

Rez, the fundamental difference between me and you is that I've learned from a mistake. You haven't. You are hellbent on trying to have a radial engine adapted to present day use. It just doesn't work. Time to hang it up and start over. Of all the people, you should understand it.

The fundamantal difference is you are hung up on your pain. For some reason you never got the message "life is not fair".

Sorry you are getting fuloughed. It has happened to me twice, so I know what you are going through. I am still struggling with my family. But I have also made my choices and I am not going to blame ALPA, gov't or industry and expect them to act in my best intrests when they can't or never said they would.

In addition, there is plenty that we as pilots can be doing to make our representation better, but we don't. We want to show up, fly our trips and go home.

Well....look where that has gotten us...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I didn't realize that employees had a say in CEO pay, much less a vote. You think we should stop voting at ALPA? Nice try at sidestepping the issue. Why not put Compensation for Officers to a membership vote? It is, after all, about the will of the voters, right?

That is not how it works in Congress. Why should it be different at ALPA when it isn't different.

There is a process. A democratic.. majority practice. Have you introduced a resolution at your LEC?

At the 2004BOD compensation was not an issue.
At the 2006BOD compensation was not an issue.

What do you think about the 2008BOD? NOW is the perfect time to start the process of addressing compensation at the 2008BOB this Fall. Will you do it?

So, as of now, its not an issue at the BODs, you haven't done anyting about it except whine on FI.

How can anyone take you seriously. I mean if it is really that important to you, then do something.

What are your personal own LEC voter and LEC meeting particaption rates for 2007? It's not about me, Rez...it's about a Union whose foundation was built during regulation. Seniority does not work in today's unregulated market. It works against the pilot.

Classic.... it is not about you. No way... can't be... how can you have any responsibility in this.

Seniority is no good anyomore... ok.. sure... do you suggest a different program or just no seniority.

If you have a better program than seniority then lets hear it...

If you think no seniority then we can all start playing favorites to the chief pilot. I hear it is nasty to try and compete with your fellow pilot to upgrade... The azz kissing, bootlicking and doing whatever some 19 year old community college drop out crew scheduler tells you to.....

[pilot calls home] its me. gotta work tonight
[wife] what? but its _____________. (insert special family event here: birthday, anniversary etc..)
[pilot] I know but I really want to upgrade and I don't want to piss off CP "What's His Nuts"
[wife] oh all right..... (hangs up losing more respect for her husband and her skin crawls at the thought of sex with him and his spineless body...]

What is your real concern with ALPA national compensation? It's the double-standard hypocrisy of the situation. The officers at national level are there for, first and foremost, themselves. They have taken care of themselves financially while the membership twists in the wind. They adopt the same pay practices of the CEO's they attack. If the membership asks "what's in it for me?" they get a browbeating in the ALPA magazine by Chris Beebe about being an Apathetic Victim. It is a very nice facade, as GTgirl pointed out.

Again....

There is a process. A democractic.. majority practice. Have you introduced a resolution at your LEC?

At the 2004BOD compensation was not an issue.
At the 2006BOD compensation was not an issue.

What do you think about the 2008BOD?

So its not an issue at the BODs, you haven't done anyting about it excpet whine on FI.

How can anyone take you seriously. I mean if it is really that important to you, then do something.
​

I am begining to think that you really don't understand how our culture and life works. While management and gov't continue to pound us, you are myopic on compensation, yet you won't do anything about it. In addition, your fellow pilots that you don't vote for, do not have an issue with compensation at the BOD.

In addition, you won't March on DC, picket, vote, give to the PAC... in short, you want to be served but you are unwilling to to your part. You want all the reward but none of the responsbility.

Well, what would have to change in order for National compensation to have value? I'll let my fellow pilots answer this

Or maybe you have no clue.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Nice post about the Nazis, Rez. Straight from the 30s, just like ALPA.

You're argueing under the false assumption that ALPA is a Union. It's going to go the way of seperate in house Unions.

 

[regionaltard]

There is a process. A democratic.. majority practice.

The fundamental notion of democracy is a good one, but actual democracies too often devolve into the tyranny of the majority (not necessarily in terms of numbers, but in power) or simple paralysis due to lack of consensus. ALPA is a good example of both happening simultaneously. It is currently by no stretch of the imagination a labor union in the classic sense.

The process that you worship is the vehicle that brought us here in the first place. Until there's a collective realization on the part of a critical mass of airline pilots that what we're doing now just isn't working and a willingness on the part of those who are jealously hoarding what they mistakenly believe to be "power" to surrender part of it for the greater good, buffoons like Doug Parker will continue to eat our lunch.

ALPA is doomed to fade into total irrelevance without a strong National leadership armed with a mandate to act in the best interests of the profession, the wisdom to know where those interests lie, and the courage to act in the face of opposition from those who feel disadvantaged by the shifting landscape. LEC resolutions aren't going to get it done. I'd go so far as to say that by creating the illusion of ownership of the process they probably have the opposite effect.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Regionaltard, I agree with your post.

 

[flygirlqt]

Nice post Regionaltard.

 

[JT8D]

The fundamental notion of democracy is a good one, but actual democracies too often devolve into the tyranny of the majority (not necessarily in terms of numbers, but in power) or simple paralysis due to lack of consensus. ALPA is a good example of both happening simultaneously. It is currently by no stretch of the imagination a labor union in the classic sense.

The process that you worship is the vehicle that brought us here in the first place. Until there's a collective realization on the part of a critical mass of airline pilots that what we're doing now just isn't working and a willingness on the part of those who are jealously hoarding what they mistakenly believe to be "power" to surrender part of it for the greater good, buffoons like Doug Parker will continue to eat our lunch.

ALPA is doomed to fade into total irrelevance without a strong National leadership armed with a mandate to act in the best interests of the profession, the wisdom to know where those interests lie, and the courage to act in the face of opposition from those who feel disadvantaged by the shifting landscape. LEC resolutions aren't going to get it done. I'd go so far as to say that by creating the illusion of ownership of the process they probably have the opposite effect.

That word courage says it all. ALPA has fallen into a sort of self protection mode and it's lack of REAL action on ANYTHING as of late (except for age 65, which NOBODY wanted) has rendered it a shell of it's former self.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The fundamental notion of democracy is a good one, but actual democracies too often devolve into the tyranny of the majority (not necessarily in terms of numbers, but in power) or simple paralysis due to lack of consensus. ALPA is a good example of both happening simultaneously. It is currently by no stretch of the imagination a labor union in the classic sense.

Sounds good... got a better idea for our situation?

The process that you worship is the vehicle that brought us here in the first place.

Its just the way of our Founding Fathers....

Until there's a collective realization on the part of a critical mass of airline pilots that what we're doing now just isn't working

Very good.... more and more pilots DOING SOMETHING!!! wow... what a concept... actually doing something...

Not being lazy and apathetic....

Now... how is collectively laziness ALPA's fault..

and a willingness on the part of those who are jealously hoarding what they mistakenly believe to be "power" to surrender part of it for the greater good, buffoons like Doug Parker will continue to eat our lunch.

What is the greater good? Too vague and broad... Don't get me wrong I am all for it... however what you think is the greater good and what he thinks is the greater good is different... For example, many pilots felt Age 65 was for the greater good. Many did not. So who is right?


Can you stick together when the going gets tough...

Like AAA and AWA? That was ALPA's fault and a power grab from the Power guys ....right....??

ALPA is doomed to fade into total irrelevance without a strong National leadership armed with a mandate to act in the best interests of the profession,

Agreed. Can you define what is in the best interests of the profession? Your interests? Mine? His? Hers? what about the other 55,996 pilots?

I agree, but isn't that the difficulty of it all...

the wisdom to know where those interests lie, and the courage to act in the face of opposition from those who feel disadvantaged by the shifting landscape.

Oh...so suddenly the ALPA National Leaddrship has to have the wisdom to know whats best for everyone.. (recall age 60/65?) and you advocate the courage to tell the opposition to pound sand.... Gee... that sounds like justification for the way ALPA handled Age 65.

LEC resolutions aren't going to get it done. I'd go so far as to say that by creating the illusion of ownership of the process they probably have the opposite effect.

So LEC resolutions don't get it done? What does?

"a strong National leadership armed with a mandate to act in the best interests of the profession"


Nice drivel and the kudos you got from the do nothing but whine and cry crowd. Don't try voting, thinking, engaging, working and defending... Just advocate that "until the collective and until the leadership". Too easy huh... IOW until someone else does something we are all phcuked... pathetic.

One of the flaws in your post is the fact that if/when ALPA becomes irrelevent.... what next....??

After you watch the house crumble and burn jumping up and down with glee.... the next morning someone is going to ask a very thought provoking question:

Now that we burned down our house.... where are we going to sleep tonight?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Like AAA and AWA? That was ALPA's fault and a power grab from the Power guys ....right....?? Why are you not happy for them Rez? They took part in a democratic process and they shook off Laziness and Apathy!Did the fact that it not go in hand with your master ALPA plan touch a nerve?

And what do you care for, in time you will hear less and less from them about how it's ALPA's fault...you should be relieved.

Agreed. Can you define what is in the best interests of the profession? Your interests? Mine? His? Hers?
Could you get any more vague about THE profession? How about Mainline vs Feeder? Better yet, SWA vs UAL...or even CMR vs MAG. That's the difference between your theory and the reality of it. In theory, I agree with you...we should all make half a million a year flying which ever equipment and routes best suits our needs. Is that going to happen in reality? The reality is that we're deregulated and it's a free market guided by $$$.

Oh...so suddenly the ALPA National Leaddrship has to have the wisdom to know whats best for everyone...I agree Rez. Now if you could just apply this to President Bush. He really can't be held accountable can he? Why should he be expected to know everything? Just a simple man like You or I.

Nice drivel and the kudos you got from the do nothing but whine and cry crowd. Don't try voting, thinking, engaging, working and defending... Just advocate that "until the collective and until the leadership". Too easy huh... IOW until someone else does something we are all phcuked... pathetic.Easy Rez, he's just giving One answer to the question you asked. Clearly, we are all "Clueless" if we do not agree with Rez.

Now that we burned down our house.... where are we going to sleep tonight? Deep, Deep question...this is going to require MUCH introspection on our beha....oh, wait...just form in-house Unions. Problem solved! Damn I am GOOD!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Like AAA and AWA? That was ALPA's fault and a power grab from the Power guys ....right....?? Why are you not happy for them Rez? They took part in a democratic process and they shook off Laziness and Apathy!Did the fact that it not go in hand with your master ALPA plan touch a nerve?

They did nothing until it was too late. Not sure how much creditbility you'll get championing USAPA. Do you support thier efforts to reneg on binding arbitration?

And what do you care for, in time you will hear less and less from them about how it's ALPA's fault...you should be relieved.

The impact on all of us for what USAPA has done will be felt... that is if you can think on a collective level.

Agreed. Can you define what is in the best interests of the profession? Your interests? Mine? His? Hers?
Could you get any more vague about THE profession? How about Mainline vs Feeder? Better yet, SWA vs UAL...or even CMR vs MAG. That's the difference between your theory and the reality of it. In theory, I agree with you...we should all make half a million a year flying which ever equipment and routes best suits our needs. Is that going to happen in reality? The reality is that we're deregulated and it's a free market guided by $$$.

So is it the free market of ALPA? And what are you going to do about it...

Oh...so suddenly the ALPA National Leaddrship has to have the wisdom to know whats best for everyone...I agree Rez. Now if you could just apply this to President Bush. He really can't be held accountable can he? Why should he be expected to know everything? Just a simple man like You or I.

I am not talking about leadership. Only you are. That is your ticket to irresponsibility...

Your hyprocrisy is you expect everyone else to behave they way you think they should but you refuse to accept any responsibility.

What responsibility does the membership have? As union members and Americans?

I am talking about what you can control. Voting, participating, marching, picketing...

But these are all things for the collective, not the individual. There is no instant gratification and immediate personal gain... that is why you won't do it.

You reject democracy, The US constitution, freedom or speech and self government. You disdain these things.

Nice drivel and the kudos you got from the do nothing but whine and cry crowd. Don't try voting, thinking, engaging, working and defending... Just advocate that "until the collective and until the leadership". Too easy huh... IOW until someone else does something we are all phcuked... pathetic.Easy Rez, he's just giving One answer to the question you asked. Clearly, we are all "Clueless" if we do not agree with Rez.

Its not me. All I am saying is vote, picket, attend meetings, fight for the profession. But you don't agree with that. That is beneath you.

This is all about your personal gain and what is in it for you. You want your gains at a fellow pilots expense. You don't want to give you want to take.

You M.O. is me me me, not what is best for the profession.

Now that we burned down our house.... where are we going to sleep tonight? Deep, Deep question...this is going to require MUCH introspection on our beha....oh, wait...just form in-house Unions. Problem solved! Damn I am GOOD!

No MCF, no support. Everyone regresses and losses ground. Sure its easier to defend smaller ground, but it is also very limiting.

Do you want to be the 50 United States or cuba? Your in house union dream is nothing but a group of little Cuba islands...


In house unions do not strike. They can't afford it. They take what management gives them.

 

[CopilotDoug]

They did nothing until it was too late. Not sure how much creditbility you'll get championing USAPA. Do you support thier efforts to reneg on binding arbitration? I don't have a dog in that fight, they are just one example of the membership NOT being lazy or apathetic.

The impact on all of us for what USAPA has done will be felt... that is if you can think on a collective level. Some might interpret that as finger pointing...they're not responsible for what happens to your company, and Your company is not responsible for theirs.

So is it the free market of ALPA? It's deregulation, and ALPA doesn't fit into that equation.

I am not talking about leadership. Only you are. And without a solid leadership, 56,000 pilots are going to magically fall in line?

Your hyprocrisy is you expect everyone else to behave they way you think they should but you refuse to accept any responsibility. New ALPA motto: Instilling Lowered Expectations in the Next Generation of Pilots.

What responsibility does the membership have? As union members and Americans? I am talking about what you can control. Voting, participating, marching, picketing...But these are all things for the collective, not the individual. There is no instant gratification and immediate personal gain... that is why you won't do it.You reject democracy, The US constitution, freedom or speech and self government. You disdain these things.
Because I think ALPA is a joke? Laughable!

Its not me. All I am saying is vote, picket, attend meetings, fight for the profession. But you don't agree with that. That is beneath you. And all I'm saying is the membership of carrier A is not responsible for the membership of carrier B. Period.

This is all about your personal gain and what is in it for you. Wow...this is wonderful ALPA propoganda. You are nothing but a walking billboard for them! You are the collective wet dream of the boy's in Herndon!

You want your gains at a fellow pilots expense. Under ALPA, it's happening all the time.

You don't want to give you want to take. Yes...just call me Mr. Grinch!:laugh:

You M.O. is me me me, not what is best for the profession. If you say so, don't you have some strongly worded letters to go write on behalf of ALPA?

No MCF, no support. Everyone regresses and losses ground. Sure its easier to defend smaller ground, but it is also very limiting. Don't leave ALPA or the sky will fall !!! Isn't anyone listening?!

Do you want to be the 50 United States or cuba? Your in house union dream is nothing but a group of little Cuba islands...

In house unions do not strike. Same goes for ALPA. ALPA as an entity in and of itself has too much to risk. Go TEAMSTERS then.

They can't afford it. They take what management gives them. Meanwhile ALPA is busy taking it back

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

They did nothing until it was too late. Not sure how much creditbility you'll get championing USAPA. Do you support thier efforts to reneg on binding arbitration? I don't have a dog in that fight, they are just one example of the membership NOT being lazy or apathetic.

Only motivated by greed. Not collective intrest.

The impact on all of us for what USAPA has done will be felt... that is if you can think on a collective level. Some might interpret that as finger pointing...they're not responsible for what happens to your company, and Your company is not responsible for theirs.

Hence the whole problem... only caring about onesself....

So is it the free market of ALPA? It's deregulation, and ALPA doesn't fit into that equation.

You've got all the problems but no answers....

I am not talking about leadership. Only you are. And without a solid leadership, 56,000 pilots are going to magically fall in line?

You'd think Captains and Captains to be (FOs), leaders in line flying, could be leaders when it comes to thier careers...

They can lead a crew when it comes flying a jet across the country but it when it comes to being professional leaders and manager of thier own career then turn into cry babies and become irresponsible.

In addition, they are a poor excuse for Americans. Custodians of democracy they are not.

Your hyprocrisy is you expect everyone else to behave they way you think they should but you refuse to accept any responsibility. New ALPA motto: Instilling Lowered Expectations in the Next Generation of Pilots.

New Member Motto: Expect ALPA to be something it is not. Never reading CB&L, Admin manual, voting, picketing, meeting attendance. Poor Americans.

What responsibility does the membership have? As union members and Americans?I am talking about what you can control. Voting, participating, marching, picketing...But these are all things for the collective, not the individual. There is no instant gratification and immediate personal gain... that is why you won't do it.You reject democracy, The US constitution, freedom or speech and self government. You disdain these things.
Because I think ALPA is a joke? Laughable!

What a poor excuse for being a pathetic American. Typical of those who blame others.

Its not me. All I am saying is vote, picket, attend meetings, fight for the profession. But you don't agree with that. That is beneath you. And all I'm saying is the membership of carrier A is not responsible for the membership of carrier B. Period.

Nice attitude. At least you are understanding and learning about yourself...

This is all about your personal gain and what is in it for you. Wow...this is wonderful ALPA propoganda. You are nothing but a walking billboard for them! You are the collective wet dream of the boy's in Herndon!

ALPA like our gov't is in trouble and has problems... but I say get involved and fix it.. I say take ownership of careers and quit electing poor leaders.

You want your gains at a fellow pilots expense. Under ALPA, it's happening all the time.

So lets take ownership and fix it...

You don't want to give you want to take. Yes...just call me Mr. Grinch!:laugh:

As long as we understand...

You M.O. is me me me, not what is best for the profession. If you say so, don't you have some strongly worded letters to go write on behalf of ALPA?

You don't vote, don't speak for yourself, claim victim status... you sound like you'd enjoy living in China, Suadi Arabia or Cuba... at least your conscience won't bother you that you can't vote and speak freely.

No MCF, no support. Everyone regresses and losses ground. Sure its easier to defend smaller ground, but it is also very limiting. Don't leave ALPA or the sky will fall !!! Isn't anyone listening?!

Please provide critical analyis on the benifits of all of us going in house union.

Do you want to be the 50 United States or cuba? Your in house union dream is nothing but a group of little Cuba islands...

In house unions do not strike. Same goes for ALPA. ALPA as an entity in and of itself has too much to risk. Go TEAMSTERS then.

You like the UPS or FedEx contract better?

They can't afford it. They take what management gives them. Meanwhile ALPA is busy taking it back

5% LEC meeting attendance
33% LEC voter attendance
25% PAC participation
apathy


Does this sound like an educated and informed membership?



Can the membership be doing better?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Only motivated by greed. It is what it is: Human Nature. It's the same reason your ALPA national officers solicited their repsective positions. NOT your best interest Rez. How does that make you feel?

Hence the whole problem... only caring about onesself...OK Sally Struthers. When do you start your worldwide crusade against hunger?

You've got all the problems but no answers...Each group of airlines is intimate with it's own set of hurdles.

In addition, they are a poor excuse for Americans. Custodians of democracy they are not. And You have to fly with these guys?! Ughhh...the mere thought makes my stomach turn!

ALPA like our gov't is in trouble and has problems... but I say get involved and fix it.. I say take ownership of careers and quit electing poor leaders. Hey, I think all three of the candidates up for vote suck. How can we stop the elction to get new people up there?

So lets take ownership and fix it...Has already been started in some areas. AAA/AWA and hopefully CAL is serious about it.


You don't vote, don't speak for yourself, claim victim status... you sound like you'd enjoy living in China, Suadi Arabia or Cuba... at least your conscience won't bother you that you can't vote and speak freely. Me personally? Well, this is all news to me!

Please provide critical analyis on the benifits of all of us going in house union. APA, SWAPA, AIRTRAN

You like the UPS or FedEx contract better? Better is a subjective term. Both are succesful contracts, in my opinion.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Only motivated by greed. It is what it is: Human Nature. It's the same reason your ALPA national officers solicited their repsective positions. NOT your best interest Rez. How does that make you feel?

So why do you expect them to be something they are not.. something you are not....

In addition, you didn't vote for the guys that voted for them... you are as far removed from the process as you can be....

Hence the whole problem... only caring about onesself...OK Sally Struthers. When do you start your worldwide crusade against hunger?

Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you?

You've got all the problems but no answers...Each group of airlines is intimate with it's own set of hurdles.

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern.

In addition, they are a poor excuse for Americans. Custodians of democracy they are not. And You have to fly with these guys?! Ughhh...the mere thought makes my stomach turn!

Then the thought of you having to fly with yourself should make your stomach turn too....

ALPA like our gov't is in trouble and has problems... but I say get involved and fix it.. I say take ownership of careers and quit electing poor leaders. Hey, I think all three of the candidates up for vote suck. How can we stop the elction to get new people up there?

Why not do what you do best and boycott the election...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...

So lets take ownership and fix it...Has already been started in some areas. AAA/AWA and hopefully CAL is serious about it.

You like USAPA...

You don't vote, don't speak for yourself, claim victim status... you sound like you'd enjoy living in China, Suadi Arabia or Cuba... at least your conscience won't bother you that you can't vote and speak freely. Me personally? Well, this is all news to me!

You are just now begining to realize that you are a failure when it comes to being a US citizen, using free will and democracy?

Please provide critical analyis on the benifits of all of us going in house union. APA, SWAPA, AIRTRAN

APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify.

SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks....

You like the UPS or FedEx contract better? Better is a subjective term. Both are succesful contracts, in my opinion.

IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about....



YAWN

 

[CopilotDoug]

So why do you expect them to be something they are not...ALPA national does not have the best interests of the pilots in mind.


Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you? My Company? Yes.

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern. You know what they say about "ifs" and "buts"...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...Almost...I don't meet one of the requirements for President.

You like USAPA...I'm indifferent. But I'd like to see the two sides hash out their issues so they can succeed as a pilot group and as an airline.

By the way, Netjets is looking at voting the Teamsters out too, in favor of inhouse representation.

APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify. Don't forget the part about the major contract concessions post 9/11 under ALPA guidance, destroying pensions and retirements.

SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.So you should be asking yourself: How can we be more like SWAPA?

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks...

IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about. Nope, Understand 100%, both are fantastic contracts. Would you not work at UPS if given the opportunity right now?

Aside from your attempt at Character Assasination (Which has been wrong about 98% of the time so far, but who's perfect?)...

Your philosophy of every pilot looking out for eachother works only in the books. Are pilots going to do this anytime soon? No. Why? Who cares! There's a BOATLOAD of reasons hired every month. Will they continue to infight under the ALPA banner? You betcha.

So while you're dutifully down in the holds of the ALPA ship trying to patch the leaky hull, new leaks are springing all over the place. Hope you brought a sack lunch because you're going to be down there a while.

Time to buy a new boat, brother.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Double Post

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So why do you expect them to be something they are not...ALPA national does not have the best interests of the pilots in mind.

Pilots don't have thier best interests. They don't vote, particapte, speak up, communicate....

Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you? My Company? Yes.

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD?

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern. You know what they say about "ifs" and "buts"...

From the apathy crowd.... sure... but don't count on them...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...Almost...I don't meet one of the requirements for President.

No but you do meet the requirement for citizen and member but you can't even be successful at that..

You like USAPA...I'm indifferent. But I'd like to see the two sides hash out their issues so they can succeed as a pilot group and as an airline.

By the way, Netjets is looking at voting the Teamsters out too, in favor of inhouse representation.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots..

APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify. Don't forget the part about the major contract concessions post 9/11 under ALPA guidance, destroying pensions and retirements.

And all the ALPA pilots that voted for those concessions. Damm there is that voting thing again...

SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.So you should be asking yourself: How can we be more like SWAPA?

Typical irresponsbile and blame game union guy... its SWA mamangement not SWAPA...

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks...
IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about. Nope, Understand 100%, both are fantastic contracts. Would you not work at UPS if given the opportunity right now?

Aside from your attempt at Character Assasination (Which has been wrong about 98% of the time so far, but who's perfect?)...

Your philosophy of every pilot looking out for eachother works only in the books. Are pilots going to do this anytime soon? No. Why? Who cares! There's a BOATLOAD of reasons hired every month. Will they continue to infight under the ALPA banner? You betcha.

So while you're dutifully down in the holds of the ALPA ship trying to patch the leaky hull, new leaks are springing all over the place. Hope you brought a sack lunch because you're going to be down there a while.

Time to buy a new boat, brother.

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different?

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot then be a self serving tool like you...

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Rez... check out this link and tell me what you think.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256


Whatcha think?

What other union on the face of this planet would do this?

 

[BigMeat]

Among them was Guillermo Castillo, 35, of Calexico, who decided to wait it out near the TraPac Terminal in the Port of Los Angeles. Resting his head on a towel matted against his cab door, Castillo complained: "I heard nothing about this. I'm losing a whole day of work, and about $580




Why do I feel like that for the last 10 years I have been underpaid?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hey Rez... check out this link and tell me what you think.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256


Whatcha think?

What other union on the face of this planet would do this?

Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

Quit blaming ALPA for not being stronger than you expect it to be in this country. If you want strong unions go to France.

The economy is prime in this country... labor is lower than whale shat.... you don't get it.

I don't recall ALPA pilots helping me when I was furloughed out of seniority order. No one from Aloha cared.... but all of sudden your pain is foremost... and you want everyone else to stop what they are doing and take care of you.... Did you stop what you were doing to take care of anyone?


What are you doing to help your cause at Aloha? Are you working to right the wrongs??? Or are you just being pissed off that your being pissed on.

Answer this:

What do you expect ALPA to do!

Don't just say ALPA should MAKE Aloha management do this or that...

Or ALPA should just go to the courts and make the judge....


What is happening to you has happened to too many pilots already... it is nothing new.. it is just new to you.

Did you protest when it happend to others?

You have my support and help... but not with your attitude...


What do you expect ALPA to do?

 

[Freight Dog]

Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?

 

[JohnDoe]

Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.

 

[regionaltard]

Now... how is collectively laziness ALPA's fault..

Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy, what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land, but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought. It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?

I see it as an PR push to gain public sympathy...

Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.

How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.




Again..... you keep looking to ALPA to solve your problems...but what are you doing to help ALPA help you? ALPA was a resource to my MEC when when I was furloughed out of seniorty... When I lost my job I busted my tail as an volunteer so my fellow pilots could get back on thier feet as soon as possible...

When other pilots were wondering what ALPA was going to do for them (even though thier company screwed them) guys like me and a few others who were in the same boat as them with families and no pay were working to make it as painless for others...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy,

Oh... so you recognize it...but you want to ignore it...


That is like saying... Notwhithstanding the fact that he was sleeping around on his wife.... the guy is really horny... so that makes it ok...



Please.... this nullifies the rest of your post... but I'll respond to it anyway..

what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

If you can't manage democracy in America, then where? Sure it takes work, and it is fustrating... but what else are you going to do? If democracy doesn't work... then what?

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

Then what do you suggest to protect the profession in the next decades?

I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land,

I never thought he was.... but the rest of the pilots had to have him....

but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought.

The minority. Does democracy work when a majority actually participates? I mean we had a town council and mayor election last week... 8% particapted. How pathetic.

We've got MIL guys defending the consititution and our democracy....for what? So we can be apathetic? Not give a shat? Let's be clear.. the very MIL pilots that are fighting for the constitution and democracy are rejecting democracy as union members...

So if we don't value democracy... then what do we do? Get rid of it? And replace it with what?

It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

The only way ALPA will be more influential is greater member particaption. If the ALPA president says to gov't and industry.. I'll have 40,000 pilots marching the Wash DC Mall next month if you don't change... and have the abilty to make it happen... that is influence...

But pilots are too lazy was your opener and that is ok.

When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.

I support the RJDC right to address its grievences.

However I don't support thier tactics and methods. They would have been much more effective if they got significant of not majority support. But thier political skillset and leadership skills stink. They could not rally the membership. Had they, they would have been more successful.

Joe Merchants sig line is 'Democracy must be more than two wolves and a sheep argueing whats for dinner.'

Well democracy is more than that... via the lawsiuts... In many countries the miniority can't be heard, but in the good ol USA you can sue. Democracy allowed the McDonalds Hot coffee woman to sue. She was a single person who foreced the majority.

So even if one is weak minded and can't start a grassroots movement to effect change, meaning the RJDC, then they can always sue. Not so in most of the world.


Sorry, your post doesn't alleviate us as American citizens to be responsible members of democracy, whether it is gov't, HOA's, unions...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD? No but you do meet the requirement for citizen...but you can't even be successful at that...And getting this thing back on track...I submit that pilot groups would be more effective in negotiating their own contracts through seperate inhouse Unions.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots...Fair enough, but can't you learn from them?

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different? I'm just giving you the big picture. The different airline pilot groups have their own interests in mind.

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot...And if I help vote in a contract which benefits me, doesn't that help the other pilots in my group?

 

[JohnDoe]

How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.

Rez:
Good job avoiding the question (like I should be suprised).

Of course the individuals should NOT be working for free. I assumed that went without saying, and most people would see that. Obviously I was wrong.

YOU, however, asked what we "expect alpa to do." I answered that question. They should, at the very least, have written an article AGAINST working for free. The Aloha pilots are doing it, and alpa should be against it. Do I need to rephrase it a couple of more times for you??

How about you re-read my response and answer the question.

 

[saabservant]

If you look at the advertisement/flyer, it is perfectly clear where the message is coming from- the alpa communications department. And believe me, the alpa comm. dept. is only second in influence in Herndon behind alpa legal.
The message, and it's presentation, are usually more important to leadership than the actual strategy, tactics, or effects on the pilots. If the pilots flying somehow believe that doing this will "save the airline, and our jobs" they are mistaken. Their airline and their jobs will be there so long as someone can and is making money by having it fly.

The message here to the public is to show how altruistic, and devoted the pilot group is to the hawaian(spelling?) economy and the public.
How does this play, and to whom, and for what effect in action/legislation I cannot know.
But it is another bad case of pilots taking concessions needlessly.

Here is what I would expect alpa to do:
Tell the bankruptcy court, the creditors committee(which has an interest in keeping aloha flying, more pennies on the dollar), and (alleged) mgmt. to pay, NOW, or ground the aircraft by refusing to fly for free. Believe me, the attorneys are not working for free...
There is NOTHING to be gained, and a profession and our QOL to lose when we roll over and allow them to scr** us in the a** like this.
MR.PRATER, MR. DONATELLI(alpa strike chairman), How about it? How about doing something, anything?