The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[PCL_128]

First, AA717, great post. And ALPA, through normal channels, has led the pilot groups down this path to preserve its sacred credibility.

Until ALPA steps outside the bounds of the RLA...not much is going to change.

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez must be on vacation, Prater's shoes don't have their usual mirror-like sheen...

How does what you say above help us as you've said just below?

On topic: We as union airline pilots are at the most critical juncture since the founding of the airlines, IMO.

Normal methods are not working--the companies are making the rules and leaving us less and less recourse as time goes on.

Normal methods? You are right. Take last year for example, the May Rally on the Mall in WasDC. 100 pilots showed up and most of them were elected reps.

The normal method which is pilots doing nothing is not working.

We still have the power--'the hand that moves the throttle, rules the airline'. (Appologies to William Ross Wallace...) Management knows this but, they know just as surely, that we won't use our leverage because we're afraid to cross the boundary into 'what we MUST do' rather than 'what we are ALLOWED to do'.

Right. So if 10,000 pilots showed up last May instead of 100 do we think we would've gotten noticed?

ALPA is not our problem. It is your fellow pilot.

During the BK era your fellow pilots voted democratcially to gut pensions, pay and work rules. All they had to do was vote no.

It's up to us. The normal channels won't allow us to gain back what is ours. TC

If it is up to us, then why blame ALPA?

First, AA717, great post. And ALPA, through normal channels, has led the pilot groups down this path to preserve its sacred credibility.

So you associate and deal with people and organizations that don't have creditability?

Then why would you expect others to do so with ALPA if it had zero creditibility?

Until ALPA steps outside the bounds of the RLA...not much is going to change.

So wrong. ALPA needs creditibility. What has worked at UAL and ASA is a grassroots movement. A safety slow down, HOT (honest on Time) departures etc...

Once the grassroots movement brings management to terms then they deal with the Collective Bargaining Agent, whether it is ALPA, APA, whoever..


It is your fellow pilot... not your union.

No kidding.

ALPA should take some notes from the UAW. And while that union is still faced with more and more of their work going off shore, the union, in general, has it's 'collective crapola' together with respect to representing their membership.

You want ALPA to be more like the UAW.

Other pilots want ALPA to be like longshoreman.

Others want ALPA to be like NYC tranist workers.

Others want ALPA to be like plumbers, electricians and carpenters.


If you want some examples then look at the NJA union. Those guys are effective. But keep in mind NJA has leverage with the company in terms of owner customers.


Instead of wishing we were like subway drivers, longshoremen, plumbers, etc.. why don't we be who we are. Air Line Pilots.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I have said in the past, "most airline pilots are pusseys", these posts explain that opinion nicely.
PBR

 

[BOOZENEWS]

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

Or how about ALPA hiring someone under the table (maybe even outside the industry) to do the dirty work and call for a job action. Then they'd keep they're hands clean and something could get done.

 

[CopilotDoug]

It's not about ALPA stepping outside the bounds of the RLA, it's about the membership stepping outside the bounds of the RLA. It would be a huge mistake for the Association itself to advocate illegal actions, but pilots starting up job actions as a grass-roots effort can produce massive dividends without much risk to the union itself. The pilots at ASA, UAL, and now PCL are showing us the way: widespread work-to-rule and slowdown campaigns that start at the grass-roots. I talked to a Pinnacle Captain yesterday that had a 40% on-time record last month. Another had 43%. Many others were around 50%. This is what needs to be done. It can't come from the union, it has to come from the members. If members are willing to stand up for themselves and fight the fight in the trenches, then they can improve the profession. If they want to sit around and wait for Prater to call for an illegal job action that would put himself in jail and bankrupt the Association, then don't hold your breath. That would be a monumentally stupid move. It's up to you, the line pilot, to improve your own leverage. Don't count on someone else to do it for you.

PCL, for once I agree with most of what you're saying here. Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession? There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession?

Pilots are Leaders in Line Operations. The CSR, ramp agents, FA's, fuelers and passengers all look to the pilots for direction during normal and irregular ops.

Why is it pilots turn to followers when it comes to THEIR CAREER?

There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.

Despite the imperfections of democracy, ALPA pilots were educated in high school in civics class.

Particaption is key to effectiveness.

Voting-
Picketing-
Volunteering-
Participating-




Any questions?

 

[PCL_128]

Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession?

Unfortunately, I do agree with that. And I'd actually disagree with Rez that it's limited to their career and not their line ops. I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.

The pilot group doesn't need education on this, they need balls. They already know what needs to be done. They simply lack the backbone to go out there and do it. They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

 

[Colonel Savage]

...I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either...They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunately, I do agree with that. And I'd actually disagree with Rez that it's limited to their career and not their line ops. I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

Look at what I said... Which is other labor groups look to pilots to be leaders.... then add what you said... many don't.

The pilot group doesn't need education on this, they need balls. They already know what needs to be done. They simply lack the backbone to go out there and do it. They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

So right... lots of complaining but no one really wants to do for themselves....

I guess things really aren't that bad....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

Look at the recent contracts at UPS and FDX.

The UPS contract passed by about 2/3

The FDX CBA passed by about 90+%.


The UPS contract is a company contract while the FDX contract is more pilot friendly.


In house unions have limited funds. Strikes are very expensive. Even ALPA has had problems pushing a strike past 30 days.

So an in house unions ability to have real negotiation leverage is limited because of they are financially unable to manage a strike.


Or look back in airline history, how many pilot groups with in house unions have had successful strikes?

I can't think of any, but there might be..

 

[PCL_128]

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

You and Dennis Leary....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVyhXlPCI4Q&feature=related

 

[flygirlqt]

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

Didn't you already cut that off to go to work for Gulfstream?

 

[flygirlqt]

If you want some examples then look at the NJA union. Those guys are effective. But keep in mind NJA has leverage with the company in terms of owner customers.

Instead of wishing we were like subway drivers, longshoremen, plumbers, etc.. why don't we be who we are. Air Line Pilots.

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

 

[pilotyip]

All union contracts are local in nature, that is why they are called locals. APLA contract at Kitty Hawk 727 Capt, about half the pay of a ALPA contract 727 Capt at FedEx. If you forced KH to pay FedEx rate they would go out of business.