The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[CopilotDoug]

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

This is true. How many MEC Chairmen have gone back to line flying when they're done at ALPA? Andy Hughes of Mesa is a good example. After he helped negotiate the sub-crap contracts at Mesa, did he go back to fly what he helped negotiate?

Turnover has to be increased at the elected officer level to keep a fresh perspective in office, someone who has a current perspective of what's going on out on the line.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

It's the "Something's Happening Here" syndrome:

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

The antidote?

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

 

[PCL_128]

How many MEC Chairmen have gone back to line flying when they're done at ALPA?

Almost all of them.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If you say so, PCL. For now I'll have to go off what you say, but would like proof since I don't have any numbers in front of me.

 

[PCL_128]

If you say so, PCL. For now I'll have to go off what you say, but would like proof since I don't have any numbers in front of me.

NWA - Mark McClain back to the line
MSA - Tom Wychor is getting qual'd on the -900 to fly the line
PCL - Wake Gordon is back flying the line
CMR - JC Lawson is back flying the line

Those are just a few right off the top of my head. We also some former regional ALPA MEC Chairmen here at AAI flying the line. It's rare for an MEC Chairman to not go back to the line. MEC Chairmen usually don't last very long. One, maybe two terms is the norm. The work load is too high for many of them, and others are simply booted out by new status reps that come into the MEC. National Officers usually don't go back to the line, but most of them are at or near retirement age when they get to National office anyway.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

ALPA is not our problem. It is your fellow pilot.

I beg to differ. As it's currently constituted, ALPA is nothing more than a loose association of autonomous bodies, "free agents" in labor parlance. These units are free to pursue their individual goals without regard to subsequent effects on other pilot groups to the detriment of the profession as a whole.

The fundamental understanding that a successful labor union is built upon is the notion that "what hurts us one hurts us all." ALPA's current paradigm more resembles "a benefit to me justifies an injury to you" coupled with an assurance that if the pilots on the short end of the stick just tough it out long enough they'll eventually be in a position to benefit at others' expense. That's not a recipe for success.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

Let's be clear, your disdain for ALPA will most likely result in you not particapting. Did you picket Wall Street with the CAL pilots?

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

Again, false. If you want to insist that the ALPA President is still a fat cat, then go ahead. We've hashed this out before, the Prez compensation is determined by the BOD, your peers, whom you elected, if you bothered to vote, which I doubt you did.

In addition, does the ALPA Prez have to be a line pilot? Tell me what you think the answer is...

Regardless, it is a real shame that you will not bother to defend the profession because you are a one issue girl. You'll sit by despite ALPA problems, for you it is compensation, and watch your own house burn down, blaming other...

your choice... but it sure is wacked..


And why do keep bashing PCL128? It shows your maturity level. He has admitted GIA was wrong. Who better to say its wrong than someone who made the mistake. What do you gain?

I beg to differ. As it's currently constituted, ALPA is nothing more than a loose association of autonomous bodies, "free agents" in labor parlance. These units are free to pursue their individual goals without regard to subsequent effects on other pilot groups to the detriment of the profession as a whole.

And this works great in the growth times. Problem is.. the regression is more often that the growth.

The fundamental understanding that a successful labor union is built upon is the notion that "what hurts us one hurts us all." ALPA's current paradigm more resembles "a benefit to me justifies an injury to you" coupled with an assurance that if the pilots on the short end of the stick just tough it out long enough they'll eventually be in a position to benefit at others' expense. That's not a recipe for success.

I agree.

However, how do you change that?

The goal would be.. less and less pilots on the short end of the stick...

The immediate method would be for the senior guys to give up some of their wealth. Is it gonna happen? Is it an ALPA problem? Or an individual problem.

Just like our gov't... you can't legislate doing the right theing at the right time for the right reason...


Don't blame ALPA because our seniority system mimics our culture and economy: which is every man for himself.

Of course we should fix it, but the solution is our fellow pilot, not the C&BL and Admin Manual

 

[Falconjet]

Guys: Try this:

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.


​

http://forums.flightinfo.com/profile.php?userlist=ignore&do=removelist&u=6922

PCL_128 This message is hidden because PCL_128 is on your ignore list.

​

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Again, false. If you want to insist that the ALPA President is still a fat cat, then go ahead. We've hashed this out before, the Prez compensation is determined by the BOD, your peers, whom you elected, if you bothered to vote, which I doubt you did.

Why not let the members vote for compensation?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why not let the members vote for compensation?

about 36% particapted in the Age 60 survey.
About 1/3 particapte in LEC elections.

This reflects the public's particaption rates in local and congressional elections.

Do you think the public should vote on bills and resolutions on the House and Senate?

Do you think...if the ALPA membership did vote on compensation, they would vote emotionally or logically?

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez? Has the low pay and pay cuts motivated us line pilots over the last 7 years? The guys I fly with state: I do the minimum and that it is it. I don't blame them.


Your thoughts?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.Then maybe it's time for some new blood with a different set of core values...the same old fashioned values which are published ad nauseum in ALPA publications. You know: Learn to do More with Less.

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?The best Generals are the one leading the charge and then eating/sleeping in the field with the troops. What would be a better aid to Prater's goals: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez?It would go along way in reaching out to the membership. It would show the pilots the national officers are in, or thinking of getting in the same boat.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.Then maybe it's time for some new blood with a different set of core values...the same old fashioned values which are published ad nauseum in ALPA publications.

Right... got it.

2006 BOD.. the New blood and core values was elected: Prater.

It was your fellow pilots, the elected status reps, who were thinking about themsleves and thier MEC instead of thinking about being a National Union. Once again.. we come back to your fellow pilots.

But it is easier to blame "ALPA" then 56,000 guys.

You know: Learn to do More with Less.

Got it. Well if ALPA only cared about money then why did National or DW sign off on those concessionary contractors..bringing in less dues to ALPA. In addition, with the loss of USAIR, there is less money...

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less... but you probably don't think more..

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?The best Generals are the one leading the charge and then eating/sleeping in the field with the troops. What would be a better aid to Prater's goals: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?

The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?

I am not defending Prater just the office and the job.

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez?It would go along way in reaching out to the membership. It would show the pilots the national officers are in, or thinking of getting in the same boat.

Ok... lets go with "your need" to slash ALPA president salary and say its done.

How much? 30%, 40? 50? 60? 70% pay cut?

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?

So then he takes a pay cut. Then what?

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]

 

[CopilotDoug]

It was your fellow pilots, the elected status reps, who were thinking about themsleves and thier MEC instead of thinking about being a National Union. Once again.. we come back to your fellow pilots.

But it is easier to blame "ALPA" then 56,000 guys.







Got it. Well if ALPA only cared about money then why did National or DW sign off on those concessionary contractors..bringing in less dues to ALPA. In addition, with the loss of USAIR, there is less money...Because less money is better than no money for ALPA. Does Live to Fight Another Day ring a bell?

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less...How much was Prater's pay/benefits cut?



The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?Yes, and they vote on their own pay. That would be a very nice option for the Line Pilots.

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?Not when it comes to his (and the National Officers) compensation.

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.So you need to get someone's attention with money? How about the old fashioned values about doing it for the right reason?

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?Let the pilots vote on it.

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]I submit there will be 100% Total Pilot Unification. But since this hasn't been done yet, I cannot be proven wrong

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because less money is better than no money for ALPA. Does Live to Fight Another Day ring a bell?

Funny, that is how your fellow pilots voted at the majors during the BK era.

Why didn't they just say No to management and be real union men?

So yeah, ALPA is doing with less...How much was Prater's pay/benefits cut?

Obviously not enough...

The Generals... are those the ones that are elected?Yes, and they vote on their own pay. That would be a very nice option for the Line Pilots.

I wasn't aware that DoD Generals are elected.

I think working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day is in the field.... no?Not when it comes to his (and the National Officers) compensation.

So this is the most important issue. Nothing else matters till you are happy with this....

What do you say to passengers that think you should take a pay cut.

Would you cut the compensation to the point where it is economically better for the President just to go back to the line and have 15+ days off.So you need to get someone's attention with money? How about the old fashioned values about doing it for the right reason?

This is America. Not your favorite Hollywood movie. Please.

Is this a good ol' days ideal when ALPA was a real union. What president did it in the past for the right reason.

But please, stay focused. You want compensation cut. I am asking how much will make you happy?

Should the compensation only be attractive to a regional Capt? Should he take a 50% pay cut to be the ALPA president?Let the pilots vote on it.

They did. At the 2006 BOD.

What changes after President takes a pay cut? [direct answer requested]I submit there will be 100% Total Pilot Unification. But since this hasn't been done yet, I cannot be proven wrong

So you are saying that LEC meeting attendance will go up to 100%.

Voting up to 100%

Picketing to 100%.

PAC to 100%


So that means if you took a pay cut you'd become a better pilot and your co pilot and FA's would respect and follow you more...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Funny, that is how your fellow pilots voted at the majors during the BK era.

Why didn't they just say No to management and be real union men? Why didn't National advise the pilots against voting for cuts? ALPA claims to be an organization, but what organization takes direct orders from the bottom-up? I'm not advocating that National should be a dictatorship, but they shouldn't be bystanders either.

I wasn't aware that DoD Generals are elected.No, they're not elected, and their working conditions making Prater's look like a walk in the park...all while doing it for a fraction of what Prater makes. Apparently they believe in something besides money and that's why they joined the military.

So this is the most important issue. Nothing else matters till you are happy with this...Sorry if that was implied. The list of problems which need to be corrected are numerous in amount.

What do you say to passengers that think you should take a pay cut. When an engine fails inflight, they'll be called to the cockpit to solve the problem.

If there's a printer paperjam in DC...who you gonna call???

Is this a good ol' days ideal when ALPA was a real union. What president did it in the past for the right reason. And the economy is SMOKIN' !!! (Not to imply that the President of the US has direct control over the economy of the US)

But please, stay focused. You want compensation cut. I am asking how much will make you happy? Well, it has been said that the majority of ALPA pilots are Regional. I'd be fine with giving Prater Senior Captain pay at your highest paid regional, just base salary.

They did. At the 2006 BOD. Did the line pilots vote, or the BOD?

So you are saying that LEC meeting attendance will go up to 100%.
Voting up to 100%
Picketing to 100%.
PAC to 100%
Absolutely! It hasn't been disproved yet has it?

So that means if you took a pay cut you'd become a better pilot and your co pilot and FA's would respect and follow you more...While flying a desk does have its inherent dangers, it is quite different from flying an AIRPLANE and therefore cannot be compared directly. What's the fatality rate for deskwork these days, anyway?


I'd like to know what you think would benefit Prater more: Political Clout or Pilot Unity?