The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession?

Pilots are Leaders in Line Operations. The CSR, ramp agents, FA's, fuelers and passengers all look to the pilots for direction during normal and irregular ops.

Why is it pilots turn to followers when it comes to THEIR CAREER?

There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.

Despite the imperfections of democracy, ALPA pilots were educated in high school in civics class.

Particaption is key to effectiveness.

Voting-
Picketing-
Volunteering-
Participating-




Any questions?

 

[PCL_128]

Would you agree that most pilots are followers when it comes to their profession?

Unfortunately, I do agree with that. And I'd actually disagree with Rez that it's limited to their career and not their line ops. I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

There are ways for ALPA to educate the pilot group without doing it publicly.

The pilot group doesn't need education on this, they need balls. They already know what needs to be done. They simply lack the backbone to go out there and do it. They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

 

[Colonel Savage]

...I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either...They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunately, I do agree with that. And I'd actually disagree with Rez that it's limited to their career and not their line ops. I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

Look at what I said... Which is other labor groups look to pilots to be leaders.... then add what you said... many don't.

The pilot group doesn't need education on this, they need balls. They already know what needs to be done. They simply lack the backbone to go out there and do it. They'd rather eliminate the risk by just sitting back and hoping that some nebulous union will solve their problems for them without them having to get their hands dirty.

So right... lots of complaining but no one really wants to do for themselves....

I guess things really aren't that bad....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

Look at the recent contracts at UPS and FDX.

The UPS contract passed by about 2/3

The FDX CBA passed by about 90+%.


The UPS contract is a company contract while the FDX contract is more pilot friendly.


In house unions have limited funds. Strikes are very expensive. Even ALPA has had problems pushing a strike past 30 days.

So an in house unions ability to have real negotiation leverage is limited because of they are financially unable to manage a strike.


Or look back in airline history, how many pilot groups with in house unions have had successful strikes?

I can't think of any, but there might be..

 

[PCL_128]

So what's your opinion of your representation? Would d you rather have ALPA?

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

You and Dennis Leary....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVyhXlPCI4Q&feature=related

 

[flygirlqt]

Are you kidding? I'd cut off my left nut to replace the NPA with ALPA.

Didn't you already cut that off to go to work for Gulfstream?

 

[flygirlqt]

If you want some examples then look at the NJA union. Those guys are effective. But keep in mind NJA has leverage with the company in terms of owner customers.

Instead of wishing we were like subway drivers, longshoremen, plumbers, etc.. why don't we be who we are. Air Line Pilots.

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

 

[pilotyip]

All union contracts are local in nature, that is why they are called locals. APLA contract at Kitty Hawk 727 Capt, about half the pay of a ALPA contract 727 Capt at FedEx. If you forced KH to pay FedEx rate they would go out of business.

 

[CopilotDoug]

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

This is true. How many MEC Chairmen have gone back to line flying when they're done at ALPA? Andy Hughes of Mesa is a good example. After he helped negotiate the sub-crap contracts at Mesa, did he go back to fly what he helped negotiate?

Turnover has to be increased at the elected officer level to keep a fresh perspective in office, someone who has a current perspective of what's going on out on the line.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I'm seeing more and more Captains that don't act like leaders in line operations either. They refuse to stand up to gate agents, rampers, stews, etc... and act like leaders instead of victims of circumstance. Pilots need to act like leaders instead of followers that count on everyone else to take care of things for them.

It's the "Something's Happening Here" syndrome:

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

The antidote?

It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

 

[PCL_128]

How many MEC Chairmen have gone back to line flying when they're done at ALPA?

Almost all of them.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If you say so, PCL. For now I'll have to go off what you say, but would like proof since I don't have any numbers in front of me.

 

[PCL_128]

If you say so, PCL. For now I'll have to go off what you say, but would like proof since I don't have any numbers in front of me.

NWA - Mark McClain back to the line
MSA - Tom Wychor is getting qual'd on the -900 to fly the line
PCL - Wake Gordon is back flying the line
CMR - JC Lawson is back flying the line

Those are just a few right off the top of my head. We also some former regional ALPA MEC Chairmen here at AAI flying the line. It's rare for an MEC Chairman to not go back to the line. MEC Chairmen usually don't last very long. One, maybe two terms is the norm. The work load is too high for many of them, and others are simply booted out by new status reps that come into the MEC. National Officers usually don't go back to the line, but most of them are at or near retirement age when they get to National office anyway.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

ALPA is not our problem. It is your fellow pilot.

I beg to differ. As it's currently constituted, ALPA is nothing more than a loose association of autonomous bodies, "free agents" in labor parlance. These units are free to pursue their individual goals without regard to subsequent effects on other pilot groups to the detriment of the profession as a whole.

The fundamental understanding that a successful labor union is built upon is the notion that "what hurts us one hurts us all." ALPA's current paradigm more resembles "a benefit to me justifies an injury to you" coupled with an assurance that if the pilots on the short end of the stick just tough it out long enough they'll eventually be in a position to benefit at others' expense. That's not a recipe for success.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We also have the leverage with the throttles, parking brake and the logbook. But ALPA doesn't want to rock the boat and jeopardize those cushy National officer positions and salaries by calling for even legal job actions.

Let's be clear, your disdain for ALPA will most likely result in you not particapting. Did you picket Wall Street with the CAL pilots?

The problem is, those National officers have also forgotten to be Airline Pilots. They are so far removed from the affects and trauma of pay cuts and work rule decimation they can not relate to the real issues facing their constituents.

Again, false. If you want to insist that the ALPA President is still a fat cat, then go ahead. We've hashed this out before, the Prez compensation is determined by the BOD, your peers, whom you elected, if you bothered to vote, which I doubt you did.

In addition, does the ALPA Prez have to be a line pilot? Tell me what you think the answer is...

Regardless, it is a real shame that you will not bother to defend the profession because you are a one issue girl. You'll sit by despite ALPA problems, for you it is compensation, and watch your own house burn down, blaming other...

your choice... but it sure is wacked..


And why do keep bashing PCL128? It shows your maturity level. He has admitted GIA was wrong. Who better to say its wrong than someone who made the mistake. What do you gain?

I beg to differ. As it's currently constituted, ALPA is nothing more than a loose association of autonomous bodies, "free agents" in labor parlance. These units are free to pursue their individual goals without regard to subsequent effects on other pilot groups to the detriment of the profession as a whole.

And this works great in the growth times. Problem is.. the regression is more often that the growth.

The fundamental understanding that a successful labor union is built upon is the notion that "what hurts us one hurts us all." ALPA's current paradigm more resembles "a benefit to me justifies an injury to you" coupled with an assurance that if the pilots on the short end of the stick just tough it out long enough they'll eventually be in a position to benefit at others' expense. That's not a recipe for success.

I agree.

However, how do you change that?

The goal would be.. less and less pilots on the short end of the stick...

The immediate method would be for the senior guys to give up some of their wealth. Is it gonna happen? Is it an ALPA problem? Or an individual problem.

Just like our gov't... you can't legislate doing the right theing at the right time for the right reason...


Don't blame ALPA because our seniority system mimics our culture and economy: which is every man for himself.

Of course we should fix it, but the solution is our fellow pilot, not the C&BL and Admin Manual

 

[Falconjet]

Guys: Try this:

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.


​

http://forums.flightinfo.com/profile.php?userlist=ignore&do=removelist&u=6922

PCL_128 This message is hidden because PCL_128 is on your ignore list.

​

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Again, false. If you want to insist that the ALPA President is still a fat cat, then go ahead. We've hashed this out before, the Prez compensation is determined by the BOD, your peers, whom you elected, if you bothered to vote, which I doubt you did.

Why not let the members vote for compensation?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why not let the members vote for compensation?

about 36% particapted in the Age 60 survey.
About 1/3 particapte in LEC elections.

This reflects the public's particaption rates in local and congressional elections.

Do you think the public should vote on bills and resolutions on the House and Senate?

Do you think...if the ALPA membership did vote on compensation, they would vote emotionally or logically?

Keep in mind the presidents job is a politician. S/he is to build relationships with Wash DC players. It is a seven day a week, 14 hour a day job. Most members don't understand this or value it. Therefore the membership would slash compensation and the job certianly would not be worth it.

Isn't that our gripe with our line flying jobs? If we were the slash the Presidents compensation would we not in effect be doing what we hate management for at our airlines?

Is president compensation really the issue here? If we slash that will that motivate the Prez? Has the low pay and pay cuts motivated us line pilots over the last 7 years? The guys I fly with state: I do the minimum and that it is it. I don't blame them.


Your thoughts?