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The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

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Only motivated by greed. It is what it is: Human Nature. It's the same reason your ALPA national officers solicited their repsective positions. NOT your best interest Rez. How does that make you feel?


So why do you expect them to be something they are not.. something you are not....

In addition, you didn't vote for the guys that voted for them... you are as far removed from the process as you can be....


Hence the whole problem... only caring about onesself...OK Sally Struthers. When do you start your worldwide crusade against hunger?

Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you?


You've got all the problems but no answers...Each group of airlines is intimate with it's own set of hurdles.

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern.



In addition, they are a poor excuse for Americans. Custodians of democracy they are not. And You have to fly with these guys?! Ughhh...the mere thought makes my stomach turn!

Then the thought of you having to fly with yourself should make your stomach turn too....

ALPA like our gov't is in trouble and has problems... but I say get involved and fix it.. I say take ownership of careers and quit electing poor leaders. Hey, I think all three of the candidates up for vote suck. How can we stop the elction to get new people up there?

Why not do what you do best and boycott the election...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...


So lets take ownership and fix it...Has already been started in some areas. AAA/AWA and hopefully CAL is serious about it.

You like USAPA...


You don't vote, don't speak for yourself, claim victim status... you sound like you'd enjoy living in China, Suadi Arabia or Cuba... at least your conscience won't bother you that you can't vote and speak freely. Me personally? Well, this is all news to me!

You are just now begining to realize that you are a failure when it comes to being a US citizen, using free will and democracy?


Please provide critical analyis on the benifits of all of us going in house union. APA, SWAPA, AIRTRAN

APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify.

SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks....


You like the UPS or FedEx contract better? Better is a subjective term. Both are succesful contracts, in my opinion.

IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about....



YAWN
 
So why do you expect them to be something they are not...ALPA national does not have the best interests of the pilots in mind.


Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you? My Company? Yes.

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern. You know what they say about "ifs" and "buts"...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...Almost...I don't meet one of the requirements for President.

You like USAPA...I'm indifferent. But I'd like to see the two sides hash out their issues so they can succeed as a pilot group and as an airline.

By the way, Netjets is looking at voting the Teamsters out too, in favor of inhouse representation.

APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify. Don't forget the part about the major contract concessions post 9/11 under ALPA guidance, destroying pensions and retirements.

SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.So you should be asking yourself: How can we be more like SWAPA?

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks...

IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about. Nope, Understand 100%, both are fantastic contracts. Would you not work at UPS if given the opportunity right now?

Aside from your attempt at Character Assasination (Which has been wrong about 98% of the time so far, but who's perfect?)...

Your philosophy of every pilot looking out for eachother works only in the books. Are pilots going to do this anytime soon? No. Why? Who cares! There's a BOATLOAD of reasons hired every month. Will they continue to infight under the ALPA banner? You betcha.

So while you're dutifully down in the holds of the ALPA ship trying to patch the leaky hull, new leaks are springing all over the place. Hope you brought a sack lunch because you're going to be down there a while.

Time to buy a new boat, brother.
 
So why do you expect them to be something they are not...ALPA national does not have the best interests of the pilots in mind.


Pilots don't have thier best interests. They don't vote, particapte, speak up, communicate....

Don't care are about that.... all I care about is my fellow pilot and the profession. Do you? My Company? Yes.

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD?

However, if we can try something new, a little different... looking out for ourselves and the other guy... what a concept... shared concern. You know what they say about "ifs" and "buts"...

From the apathy crowd.... sure... but don't count on them...

New people... how about yourself? Too challenging for self rule? The mere thought of taking responsibility for yourself must be fearful... it is way to easy just to hand over responsibility to others then play the blame game and victim...Almost...I don't meet one of the requirements for President.

No but you do meet the requirement for citizen and member but you can't even be successful at that..


You like USAPA...I'm indifferent. But I'd like to see the two sides hash out their issues so they can succeed as a pilot group and as an airline.

By the way, Netjets is looking at voting the Teamsters out too, in favor of inhouse representation.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots..


APA- 45MM fine. Sick out has caused more problems for all of us than we can quantify. Don't forget the part about the major contract concessions post 9/11 under ALPA guidance, destroying pensions and retirements.

And all the ALPA pilots that voted for those concessions. Damm there is that voting thing again...


SWAPA- luxury of a pro employee management.So you should be asking yourself: How can we be more like SWAPA?

Typical irresponsbile and blame game union guy... its SWA mamangement not SWAPA...

FL- you're kidding right... these guys have about as much leverage as a chopstick wedged between to cinder blocks...
IOW... you have no concept about what I am talking about. Nope, Understand 100%, both are fantastic contracts. Would you not work at UPS if given the opportunity right now?

Aside from your attempt at Character Assasination (Which has been wrong about 98% of the time so far, but who's perfect?)...

Your philosophy of every pilot looking out for eachother works only in the books. Are pilots going to do this anytime soon? No. Why? Who cares! There's a BOATLOAD of reasons hired every month. Will they continue to infight under the ALPA banner? You betcha.

So while you're dutifully down in the holds of the ALPA ship trying to patch the leaky hull, new leaks are springing all over the place. Hope you brought a sack lunch because you're going to be down there a while.

Time to buy a new boat, brother.

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different?

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot then be a self serving tool like you...
 
Among them was Guillermo Castillo, 35, of Calexico, who decided to wait it out near the TraPac Terminal in the Port of Los Angeles. Resting his head on a towel matted against his cab door, Castillo complained: "I heard nothing about this. I'm losing a whole day of work, and about $580




Why do I feel like that for the last 10 years I have been underpaid?
 
Hey Rez... check out this link and tell me what you think.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256


Whatcha think?

What other union on the face of this planet would do this?

Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

Quit blaming ALPA for not being stronger than you expect it to be in this country. If you want strong unions go to France.

The economy is prime in this country... labor is lower than whale shat.... you don't get it.

I don't recall ALPA pilots helping me when I was furloughed out of seniority order. No one from Aloha cared.... but all of sudden your pain is foremost... and you want everyone else to stop what they are doing and take care of you.... Did you stop what you were doing to take care of anyone?


What are you doing to help your cause at Aloha? Are you working to right the wrongs??? Or are you just being pissed off that your being pissed on.

Answer this:

What do you expect ALPA to do!

Don't just say ALPA should MAKE Aloha management do this or that...

Or ALPA should just go to the courts and make the judge....


What is happening to you has happened to too many pilots already... it is nothing new.. it is just new to you.

Did you protest when it happend to others?

You have my support and help... but not with your attitude...


What do you expect ALPA to do?
 
Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?
 
Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.
 
Now... how is collectively laziness ALPA's fault..


Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy, what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land, but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought. It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.
 
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For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?


I see it as an PR push to gain public sympathy...


Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.

How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.




Again..... you keep looking to ALPA to solve your problems...but what are you doing to help ALPA help you? ALPA was a resource to my MEC when when I was furloughed out of seniorty... When I lost my job I busted my tail as an volunteer so my fellow pilots could get back on thier feet as soon as possible...

When other pilots were wondering what ALPA was going to do for them (even though thier company screwed them) guys like me and a few others who were in the same boat as them with families and no pay were working to make it as painless for others...
 
Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy,

Oh... so you recognize it...but you want to ignore it...


That is like saying... Notwhithstanding the fact that he was sleeping around on his wife.... the guy is really horny... so that makes it ok...



Please.... this nullifies the rest of your post... but I'll respond to it anyway..




what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

If you can't manage democracy in America, then where? Sure it takes work, and it is fustrating... but what else are you going to do? If democracy doesn't work... then what?

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

Then what do you suggest to protect the profession in the next decades?


I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land,

I never thought he was.... but the rest of the pilots had to have him....




but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought.

The minority. Does democracy work when a majority actually participates? I mean we had a town council and mayor election last week... 8% particapted. How pathetic.

We've got MIL guys defending the consititution and our democracy....for what? So we can be apathetic? Not give a shat? Let's be clear.. the very MIL pilots that are fighting for the constitution and democracy are rejecting democracy as union members...

So if we don't value democracy... then what do we do? Get rid of it? And replace it with what?


It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

The only way ALPA will be more influential is greater member particaption. If the ALPA president says to gov't and industry.. I'll have 40,000 pilots marching the Wash DC Mall next month if you don't change... and have the abilty to make it happen... that is influence...

But pilots are too lazy was your opener and that is ok.


When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.


I support the RJDC right to address its grievences.

However I don't support thier tactics and methods. They would have been much more effective if they got significant of not majority support. But thier political skillset and leadership skills stink. They could not rally the membership. Had they, they would have been more successful.

Joe Merchants sig line is 'Democracy must be more than two wolves and a sheep argueing whats for dinner.'

Well democracy is more than that... via the lawsiuts... In many countries the miniority can't be heard, but in the good ol USA you can sue. Democracy allowed the McDonalds Hot coffee woman to sue. She was a single person who foreced the majority.

So even if one is weak minded and can't start a grassroots movement to effect change, meaning the RJDC, then they can always sue. Not so in most of the world.


Sorry, your post doesn't alleviate us as American citizens to be responsible members of democracy, whether it is gov't, HOA's, unions...
 
Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD? No but you do meet the requirement for citizen...but you can't even be successful at that...And getting this thing back on track...I submit that pilot groups would be more effective in negotiating their own contracts through seperate inhouse Unions.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots...Fair enough, but can't you learn from them?

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different? I'm just giving you the big picture. The different airline pilot groups have their own interests in mind.

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot...And if I help vote in a contract which benefits me, doesn't that help the other pilots in my group?
 
How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.


Rez:
Good job avoiding the question (like I should be suprised).

Of course the individuals should NOT be working for free. I assumed that went without saying, and most people would see that. Obviously I was wrong.

YOU, however, asked what we "expect alpa to do." I answered that question. They should, at the very least, have written an article AGAINST working for free. The Aloha pilots are doing it, and alpa should be against it. Do I need to rephrase it a couple of more times for you??

How about you re-read my response and answer the question.
 
If you look at the advertisement/flyer, it is perfectly clear where the message is coming from- the alpa communications department. And believe me, the alpa comm. dept. is only second in influence in Herndon behind alpa legal.
The message, and it's presentation, are usually more important to leadership than the actual strategy, tactics, or effects on the pilots. If the pilots flying somehow believe that doing this will "save the airline, and our jobs" they are mistaken. Their airline and their jobs will be there so long as someone can and is making money by having it fly.

The message here to the public is to show how altruistic, and devoted the pilot group is to the hawaian(spelling?) economy and the public.
How does this play, and to whom, and for what effect in action/legislation I cannot know.
But it is another bad case of pilots taking concessions needlessly.

Here is what I would expect alpa to do:
Tell the bankruptcy court, the creditors committee(which has an interest in keeping aloha flying, more pennies on the dollar), and (alleged) mgmt. to pay, NOW, or ground the aircraft by refusing to fly for free. Believe me, the attorneys are not working for free...
There is NOTHING to be gained, and a profession and our QOL to lose when we roll over and allow them to scr** us in the a** like this.
MR.PRATER, MR. DONATELLI(alpa strike chairman), How about it? How about doing something, anything?
 
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