FLOPS Impass?

[captain dad]

Heard some very disturbing things about FLOPS. I am not one to start rumors or give out second hand information.

Would someone give it up that knows for sure?:erm:

What's the deal?

 

[SilverSurfer]

Well dude WTF over

Heard some very disturbing things about FLOPS. I am not one to start rumors or give out second hand information.

Would someone give it up that knows for sure?:erm:

What's the deal?

Well what the the hell are you talking about. That is about the most vague statement/question that I've seen in a while.

 

[captain dad]

I don't like to talk in rumors! I heard talk about aircraft deliveries being canceled or sold off and furloughs. I would like to get some kind of confirmation. Like I said, I don't like to pass on rumors.

 

[WabiSabi]

I too heard that something is definitely going on. Nobody can argue that!.



(sorry, couldn't resist):laugh:

 

[hogbody]

Here's the scoop (I think)

Scheeringa told AIN, in the March 1 issue, that Flight Options was doing great. On March 3, he told his employees, via the weekly phone message, that the sky was falling (slowed aircraft acquisition, reduction in flying, possible furloughs, etc.). He followed this up with 2 "personal" letters to each employee, saying essentially the same thing.
On March 23, he told the local Cleveland newspaper, "The Plain Dealer", that things are going very well. They quoted him as saying he anticipates the company to grow 50% in the next 4 years.
There are two important points here: 1) The obvious: He's a liar, and 2) In a play straight from the Union Buster's Handbook: as negotiations for pilot salaries draw near, he's going to say there's no money available for increased pilot compensation. Many of you will recall the same thing happening at this point in NetJets negotiations.
Many, (probably most) FO pilots are tired of his crap, don't care what he says about the financial situation, and would be just as happy if he closed the doors rather than to continue with substandard compensation, benefits and quality of life.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I am not one to start rumors or give out second hand information.

Whatever dude. Remember this?

 

[captain dad]

Whatever dude. Remember this?

I do remember that. I kept my word and when I was able to say what I knew it came right from the source. No second hand rumor. If you didn't like what the laundry list of surprises were, ...well that's your problem now isn't it? Dude.

 

[captain dad]

Scheeringa told AIN, in the March 1 issue, that Flight Options was doing great. On March 3, he told his employees, via the weekly phone message, that the sky was falling (slowed aircraft acquisition, reduction in flying, possible furloughs, etc.). He followed this up with 2 "personal" letters to each employee, saying essentially the same thing.
On March 23, he told the local Cleveland newspaper, "The Plain Dealer", that things are going very well. They quoted him as saying he anticipates the company to grow 50% in the next 4 years.
There are two important points here: 1) The obvious: He's a liar, and 2) In a play straight from the Union Buster's Handbook: as negotiations for pilot salaries draw near, he's going to say there's no money available for increased pilot compensation. Many of you will recall the same thing happening at this point in NetJets negotiations.
Many, (probably most) FO pilots are tired of his crap, don't care what he says about the financial situation, and would be just as happy if he closed the doors rather than to continue with substandard compensation, benefits and quality of life.

I understand tactics and pressure that management uses, but are they canceling orders and is there a furlough notice out?

 

[IDEtoNJA]

I do remember that. I kept my word and when I was able to say what I knew it came right from the source. No second hand rumor. If you didn't like what the laundry list of surprises were, ...well that's your problem now isn't it? Dude.

Captain dad,

I'm sorry! But, I do have to agree with Ultra Grump!

A good way to start and promulgate a rumor is by starting a thread such as this! The best way to keep rumors from spreading is to wait for the information to be made public by the source itself!

I know that it is hard in this day and age of instant gratification!

IDEtoNJA

 

[dime line]

How can we hire new hires and furlough at the same time?

 

[captain dad]

If no one can confirm it, than that confirms it is just a rumor. Facts are facts. I don't work there so I wanted someone to confirm it. Since no one jumped on it, than it must be rumor. Just asking.

If it is not true, than I am glad to squash the "rumor" I heard others talking about.

All my best guys.imp:

 

[HSDriver]

How can we hire new hires and furlough at the same time?

The new hires work a lot cheaper...

 

[skyismyoffice]

I understand tactics and pressure that management uses, but are they canceling orders and is there a furlough notice out?

Both were mentioned in one of the letters that went out - obviously scare tactics. Like Hogbody said noone cares (or believes) anything that comes from management.

 

[captain dad]

Again, just asking. Is there an official furlough notice out or was it just a potential threat from management in an "oh my god, the sky is falling" type letter?

Thanks.

 

[netjetwife]

Scheeringa told AIN, in the March 1 issue, that Flight Options was doing great. On March 3, he told his employees, via the weekly phone message, that the sky was falling ... He's paying Fud&Harassment a lot of money for their destructive advice and a proven liar would have no problem taking it.... He followed this up with 2 "personal" letters to each employee, saying essentially the same thing. What a waste! Typical tactic from Union-Busting 101. Since the FLOPS have money to throw away they can pay fair wages. On March 23, he told the local Cleveland newspaper, "The Plain Dealer", that things are going very well. They quoted him as saying he anticipates the company to grow 50% in the next 4 years. I'd print the article and pass it around to all the Ops pilots out on the road. Hey, news like that is too good not to share. Then I'd suggest a side-by-side comparison with their letter from him...
There are two important points here: 1) The obvious: He's a liar, and 2) In a play straight from the Union Buster's Handbook: as negotiations for pilot salaries draw near, he's going to say there's no money available for increased pilot compensation. Many of you will recall the same thing happening at this point in NetJets negotiations. Exactly! Standard F&H procedure to spread FUD.
Many, (probably most) FO pilots are tired of his crap, don't care what he says about the financial situation, and would be just as happy if he closed the doors rather than to continue with substandard compensation, benefits and quality of life.

And most frac pilots would be fully supportive of your stand. The goal is to pull wages up for all frac pilots and families, not to let them use the low wage stick to beat each other down. If the present managers won't get their act together and deal fairly with the workers they should be replaced by HIG. If HIG refuses to correct the situation the pilots are better off letting them fail. You are talented professionals with other options. It is flat-out wrong of the FLOPS to balance the budget on your backs and short-change your families rather than doing their job with the same level of attention to detail that they demand from the pilots. I admire you for the stand you're taking. NJW

A FAIR CONTRACT IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION. ANYTHING LESS SHOULD GET THE BOOT.

 

[B19 Flyer]

And most frac pilots would be fully supportive of your stand. The goal is to pull wages up for all frac pilots and families, not to let them use the low wage stick to beat each other down. If the present managers won't get their act together and deal fairly with the workers they should be replaced by HIG. If HIG refuses to correct the situation the pilots are better off letting them fail. You are talented professionals with other options. It is flat-out wrong of the FLOPS to balance the budget on your backs and short-change your families rather than doing their job with the same level of attention to detail that they demand from the pilots. I admire you for the stand you're taking. NJW

A FAIR CONTRACT IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION. ANYTHING LESS SHOULD GET THE BOOT.

Hey, you.. the ignorant one with the boots... the non-pilot spitting out pro union propaganda with bad business sense... the one who doesn’t “get it” that bailed out of AA when they didn’t agree what APA negotiated, the one that doesn’t appreciate the efforts of non-pilots and their career investments, the one that thinks it’s OK to get paid when you volunteer, the one that thinks democracy is limited within a union by the type of certificate in their pocket. I could go on, but I want to get to the point.

The first time I made the statement, "you asked for a union, you got it" was a little less than two years ago in May, 2006.

In that same post, I made the statement, you've got at least three years of turmoil ahead of you, and the company isn't going to do anything for you while the contract is in negotiations. All companies in union negotiations freeze everything. Period. It’s basic business. You got what you asked for.

The other factual statement I've always made is how well unions react (or don't react) when the pressure is on the line and things get important. 1108 needs to get going before the economy gets much worse. The pressure is on and if they were as good as everybody says they are, 1108 should be able to convince management to get it done.

Now, two years after making that original statement, the FLOPS guys and all the pro-union protagonists such as you are still spitting out union turmoil on a daily basis, and the NJASAP process is another shining example of how the turmoil never ends.

You call me names and tell me I'm an idiot, but the CS guys are able to have their bar raised and the FLOPS guys can't because the union negotiations prevent it. Basic Business. It’s working exactly as I said it would 2 years ago. As it unfolds, I’ll be sure to remind you how accurate my factual information is. A union is a union, and they all act the same.

So far, what I’ve said has become true. One more year of turmoil, and my first prophecy comes true. Three years of turmoil and nothing gained.

Next, the economy is hitting the crapper and cycling in a direction that no pilot wants to see. Great time to be in negotiations guys, just brilliant, you swallowed the 1108 union koolaide while your non-union buddies over at CS stay non-union and ride off the contact at NJ. At this point, the CS guys are clearly in the better spot. Did they ride of the union “success” at NJ? If you want to call it success, that’s fine. But in the end, it’s the smartest group out there so far. Just like what Delta did. They are the least unionized airline and will be in the best spot to recover and keep the company as a viable entity with the least amount of turmoil.

The worsening economy doesn’t just hit airlines, it hit’s everybody. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. Those rich guys buying the fractional shares? You are only fooling yourself if you think that the economy isn’t going to hit them too. They know how to keep their money, they will travel less and there will be some kind of contraction in private jet use.

When it starts to slow, let’s see how that industry leading contract at NJ holds up. If things get tight, the ones laughing on these boards the most will be the handful of us choosing to work in non-union carriers that are able to react.

There is really nothing funny about having a union on the property though. When times are good, it’s easy to get on the bandwagon and yell cheers to the world, but when you are in a union carrier and it begins to go downhill it will go down a lot faster with a whole lot more pain and turmoil.

I hope I’m wrong about the economy and all that is happening, but when it’s all said and done, the CS and rest of the non-union fractional pilots will be in the best shape of all to look toward their futures while enjoying the least amount of turmoil.

You got what you asked for.

 

[hogbody]

B-19,
I normally don't pay attention to your posts, but something caught my eye as I scrolled past your last one. You spoke of Citation Shares pilots' having the "bar raised" (having pay similar to NetJets) because they are non-union. You implied that Flight Options pilots would be in a similar situation had they not voted in IBT1108.
Here's what really happened: The pilots of CS and FO had always been told it would be a waste of time, effort and money to vote in a union because their pay would always be equal or better than NetJets pilots. Most pilots in both groups believed this. Two years ago, when NJ announced the signing of the contract, Citation Shares responded within 48 hours with a commensurate pay raise. Flight Options did nothing. Here's the real surprise-- FLIGHT OPTIONS MANAGEMENT HAD BEEN LYING TO THE PILOTS ALL ALONG! Sure, once the union movement took hold, management started slowly waffling towards a "pilot raise", but kept sliding back the date, and refusing to disclose the amount. Their attitude was that the pilots should just trust them (and not vote in the union). The pilots knew they had been duped once again, and they had enough of Scheeringa's arrogance and deceit. Sixty-seven percent of them immediately voted for IBT1108 representation.
That's what really happened Bob/B-19. Management really does get the union they deserve.

 

[hogbody]

P.S. Ongoing union negotiations under the RLA do not prevent FO management from "raising the bar" on pilot compensation as long as both parties agree to it.

 

[Fozzy]

Chicken Little.
You heard it here folks. All the non union companies out there will be the ones to see the pay cuts and benefits cuts. And that is good business! That is what you are talking about isn't it? Just say it out loud so we can have it here in print.
No contract, no say in your cuts! Come on and say it! Able to "react" huh? That sounds like making quick business decisions based on emotion. I don't see my best interests in that type of business. The only folks that make out in that scenario is upper management. Just adding it to their resume.
But that is only half of the story. The only ones that will get the pay cut will be the pilots and other service folks. The upper management won't see any cuts while shoving it down the workers throats. And this makes b's handlers very very happy.

And as far as the market goes. I am all in. No chicken little here. Buying and positioning myself for a turn around that we all know will come. Buying low for the next 6 months.
Hel! I am up 50% before the money hits the street, thanks to my horrible horrible pay me a livable and respectable wage contract.

 

[Fozzy]

Hog,
Stop with the history and facts, b wants nothing to do with that. You may confuse him.

 

[shanes123]

Flops are selling off alot of planes..Just look around there all over the internet and Magazines. And they are cancelling orders or selling the plane off the day they get it..No rumor just fact there

 

[netjetwife]

Great post, Hog!! Sorry, Foz, I know it's full of those pesky straight facts and the fudspinners whine when they hear it...kinda like dogs with a high pitched noise...they go berserk but the rest of us are fine hearing the truth. However, let's be fair here. Your own post was quite hard-hitting, too, when it comes to posting history and facts.... For example...

Your point about upper management shoving cuts down workers' throats was so real and unvarnished that I was having flashbacks about my husband getting furloughed from AA while the executives were caught (by the vigilant union) scrambling to exempt their money from the slash and burn program. Yeah, we got burned there, but management was wielding the torch...:angryfire

BACK OFF, B19. DO NOT QUOTE MY POST WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I DO NOT WANT MY WORDS TWISTED IN A FUDSPINNER'S POST. I AM CLAIMING OWNERSHIP OF MY OWN HISTORY.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Flops are selling off alot of planes..Just look around there all over the internet and Magazines. And they are cancelling orders or selling the plane off the day they get it..No rumor just fact there

can somebody "in the know" elaborate intelligently about this? thanks!

 

[cjs]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. Look at the young guys at the regionals who would kill for your job, and ask yourself again .. am I underpaid? If you don't think you're making enough, then find better compensation elsewhere. Can't do it? Then this is what you're worth. And only a scumbag would drag his fellow employees into this. Let every man decide for himself what he's worth.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Great post, Hog!! Sorry, Foz, I know it's full of those pesky straight facts and the fudspinners whine when they hear it...kinda like dogs with a high pitched noise...they go berserk but the rest of us are fine hearing the truth. However, let's be fair here. Your own post was quite hard-hitting, too, when it comes to posting history and facts.... For example...

Your point about upper management shoving cuts down workers' throats was so real and unvarnished that I was having flashbacks about my husband getting furloughed from AA while the executives were caught (by the vigilant union) scrambling to exempt their money from the slash and burn program. Yeah, we got burned there, but management was wielding the torch...:angryfire

BACK OFF, B19. DO NOT QUOTE MY POST WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I DO NOT WANT MY WORDS TWISTED IN A FUDSPINNER'S POST. I AM CLAIMING OWNERSHIP OF MY OWN HISTORY.

Back off? ROFL!!! :laugh:

Here is your exact, disgusting quote:

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule? Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they? I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD. PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

Embarrassing, disgusting and completely full of disrespect for all non-pilot fraction and industry employees.

There it is, in your own words. Live with it, and I'll be more than happy to compile all of the original posts to show there was no word twisting involved.

There is no editing, no changes, no word twisting.

Want me to dig up the others? It's not very hard.

 

[B19 Flyer]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. Look at the young guys at the regionals who would kill for your job, and ask yourself again .. am I underpaid? If you don't think you're making enough, then find better compensation elsewhere. Can't do it? Then this is what you're worth. And only a scumbag would drag his fellow employees into this. Let every man decide for himself what he's worth.

Makes sense to me, and while it's not a popular opinion on this board (as you are soon to find out), that's been what I've been stating for ages.

 

[learflyer]

If this guy is really Bob Tyler, this stuff is really disturbing to read.....

 

[gunfyter]

19,

I could have chosen to invest (and study) to become an MD ... but I did not. How is that disrespectful? ... To non-Doctor employees at a Hospital. Like lab-techs or nurses?

when you need surgery ... you care mostly about who the doctor is holding the scalpel as you lie on the operating table. You appreciate the people who prepared you before you see the Doctor ... but ... Its all about seeing that Doctor.

This not disrespect ... it is fact.

While planes don't move unless paper moves and money moves ... You care mostly about the crew flying your trip. This is why every Frac company's website brags primarily how good their crews are.

We have great accountants at our company ... but not a word about them on the company website.

 

[brokeflyer]

leave b19 alone, he cant help it. They have no age verification process at this site. So the kiddies can post on here.

 

[Frac Cap]

can somebody "in the know" elaborate intelligently about this? thanks!

M.S. said that we had planed on getting 13 new aircraft this year. But do to "economic conditions" we canceled most of those orders and that is non reversible. I believe he said we would only be getting about 4 new aircraft this year (to replace the 10+ year aircraft). But here is where it gets interesting, he doesn't say how many aircraft he will be selling this year. I do know we have been selling many aircraft from our fleet. So by the end of the year, it is anybodies guess how many aircraft we will have left.