CS Pay

[gunfyter]

NOBODY is ever compensated if they are volunteering. Volunteering is done above and beyond the normal paycheck.

BS, I volunteered to Fly Airplanes in the military. I was paid extra for volunteering.

Was I not a volunteer?

Millions have volunteered to serve their country in the armed forces. They do receive compensation. are they not volunteers?

Many volunteer to serve as Union officials ... to make the company a Better place to work.

 

[netjetwife]

Without Union volunteerism, the union work doesn't get done. By far, the majrity of union volunteers work way more than they get credit for. .... If your fellow pilots, through their dues money, pays for you to do union work, by golly you owe it to them to work at least as much as you would have worked if you didn't volunteer.

Good post, Sparse. I totally agree. 1108 volunteers and leaders work very hard, as the '05 and '07 CBAs can attest, not to mention all the committee work and representations that go with running the Union on a daily basis. The stipend is fairly recent and many volunteers and leaders had lost thousands of dollars in missed earnings opportunities before the stipend was approved. My husband's conservative guess was 10K for our family and that doesn't include the time-value of countless hours spent working at his desk on his days "off". Conference call is a household term our kids are very familiar with. Many of the 1108 pilots and volunteers (my family among them) also donated thousand$ to help establish StrongUnion and 1108. Should another grass-roots movement occur, I'm confident the NJ pilots would again offer time and money to help an important cause succeed. Remember, lots of behind the scenes work is done before a big project is launched.

Many of the projects my husband works on (like today's meeting w/upper management) are done by joint (pilot-management) committees. NJA values the help and doesn't bat an eye at pulling some of the pilots off the line and bringing them to CMH at Company expense. For example, the Union Training Committee (UTC) led the re-design effort and has saved NJA millions in training costs. The pilotgroup and upper management both realize that 1108 volunteers/leaders bring much talent to the table and the joint projects are worth every dollar spent. The exemplary working relationship between 1108 and management is commendable and everyone throughout the company has benefited because of it.

 

[netjetwife]

B19,

Re-read my post about compensation for the "volunteers." The volunteers do NOT get ANY money from 1108. My Fischy friend this is confusing the readers. Stewards and some Committee Chairmen (which are volunteer, appointed positions) earn the stipend because of time spent in CMH on meetings and joint projects. The ELECTED union officials do get compensated from the pilots for OT lost because they do not get the chance to earn that while on flight duty (although they put in more hours than I do). Absolutely the dues spent on Union work has been a fantastic investment for the pilotgroup.
The amount is by no means outrageous and IMHO, is well earned. The 1108 leaders are worth every nickel I have paid to them.

The NJ pilots wouldn't have the contract and improved working conditions they do today without the many, many hours (and much personal sacrifice) 1108 volunteers and leaders have put in on their behalf.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The NJ pilots wouldn't have the contract and improved working conditions they do today without the many, many hours (and much personal sacrifice) 1108 volunteers and leaders have put in on their behalf.

You seem to forget, that the dollars for the pilot contract come from somewhere, they don't just suddenly appear.

The real sacrifice comes from the rank and file employees that work equally hard to support the operation. Wages that would get spread more evenly throughout the company get dumped into the contract, and rank and file employees get the shaft because the payroll bucket doesn't change.

Not once, not one single time in a year of posting have I seen one word that supports the rank and file employees that take it on the chin when a union contract is put in place.

These are the people that work more hours a month, in many cases the same if not more education and have paid their dues no different than any pilot but chose or were forced to a life in a support position rather than flying. I don't want to read the hallowed crap about the responsibility of flying, because that stands for itself. I get that and pilots should be compensated accordingly. However, it shouldn't be at the expense of the rest of the company which is exactly what happens when a CBA is forced onto a company.

Why is there such disrespect from the union members on this board? When a CBA happens, and pilots get their QOL, the money comes from the company and the rest of the employees get screwed.

I understand a little bit about sacrifice after being part of the colateral damage caused by the scorched earth attitude of two unions.

 

[netjetwife]

.... Millions have volunteered to serve their country in the armed forces. They do receive compensation. are they not volunteers? Many volunteer to serve as Union officials ... to make the company a Better place to work.

Excellent analogy, GF, and thanks for your service to our country. The expression all volunteer force is commonly used to describe our military. Our resident FUD flinger is ignoring reality (common sign of deception) in his useless attempt to stir up discontent among 1108 members. I previously posted the definition of volunteer that applies to 1108: One who enters into, or offers for, any service of his own free will. I even went on to add (readers please excuse the redundancy required for the deliberately dimwitted among us) that service is not a requirement of union membership. But that fact doesn't fit an agenda of twisting the truth and disparaging the pilots who choose to stand together and help one another.

The vast majority of the posters here would like to focus on current events and relevant topics. But one among is marching in the village square to his own beat.... Amid the monotonous drumming FUD..FUD..FUD..I'd like to publicly thank the American pilots' union for getting stock options for the furloughed pilots who were victims of terrorism and mismanagement.

 

[CA1900]

The real sacrifice comes from the rank and file employees that work equally hard to support the operation.

While our support folks work very hard and we do depend on them, I genuinely believe our pilots work harder, under ever-changing conditions and schedules that those folks don't deal with.

We earn the lion's share of the pay because we do the lion's share of the work out on the front lines. And when those support folks make a mistake, we're the ones who are left the clean up the mess.

Wages that would get spread more evenly throughout the company get dumped into the contract, and rank and file employees get the shaft because the payroll bucket doesn't change.

As I'm sure NJA Owner can attest, the monthly management fees -- the source of our salaries -- have gone up to cover increased pilot wages. In exchange, we've been able to continue to recruit quality pilots who know the ins-and-outs of the system, who don't skimp on customer service, and who, as the only employees our customers will likely see, will go the extra mile to give the best service possible. Keeping employees like that costs money; it's as simple as that.

These are the people that work more hours a month, in many cases the same if not more education...

I'm not sure where you get the education assertion. Most of our pilots are college graduates with decades of real-world experience. Experience costs an employer money, in any field.

As for the hours, I put in 216 hours at work last month (18 days, average of 12 hours a day), and that doesn't even account for time away from home in hotels. I don't see too many of flight coordinators pulling 50 hour weeks and sleeping in a different city each night.

Why is there such disrespect from the union members on this board? When a CBA happens, and pilots get their QOL, the money comes from the company and the rest of the employees get screwed.

You sound like Bush. With us or against us. Us versus them. Union versus non-union. Just because we're able to negotiate a payscale commensurate with our position and experience, and have work rules in place to protect our safety and quality of life, does not mean anyone else has to get screwed in the process.

And if these other employees really feel like they're underpaid and abused, they're free to use the provisions of the Railway Labor Act to negotiate their pay and benefits, just as we have.

I understand a little bit about sacrifice after being part of the colateral damage caused by the scorched earth attitude of two unions.

When a company gets to that stage, it's because the company and its management has made serious errors in judgment. Management has driven the company into the ground. FlightOptions is a perfect example of this.

 

[netjetwife]

CA1900, isn't it tiresome having a person who has no affiliation at all with NJA telling pilots from there what is happening in that company... Incredible! As in lacking credibility, but spoken like a classic paid union buster whose real objective is to drive a wedge between the employees.
Everyone at NJA knows that the end of labor strife brought record profits and growth as motivated pilots proved that the carrot approach is much more productive than the stick. In aviation it is in every employees best interest to have well experienced pilots, responsible for lives and aircraft worth millions, at the controls. As a direct result of professional compensation NJA and CS are attracting pilots while the underpaid pilots of Options are leaving and few are lining up for the stick approach used there. Every employee wants to be proud of the company they work for; a desirable, growing company is far preferred by the rank and file over one that is shunned for low wages and mismanagement.

At NJA joint projects-- embraced with enthusiasm-- involve both line pilots and support workers. FUD spreaders typically conjure up all kinds of things that aren't true, especially during card drives and contract negotiations, but reality speaks for itself. Compared to an outsider with an agenda, frac pilots are the best source of information concerning the companies they fly for and 1108 volunteers/members are the ones who can speak knowledgeably about their Union.

Boots on and wading thru the FUD,
Netjetwife

 

[fischman]

NJW,

Thanks for the correction. I did forget about the Stewards and some of the committee chairs. However, the money they recieve is to reimburse them for expenses they need to complete their union volunteer duties. For example, I get help from 1108 for my cell phone bill for the HOURS upon HOURS I spend on it.

The Stewards and elected officials get a little extra because they put in such an incredible amount of time that they NEVER get a chance to earn holiday pay or OT. That is where WE THE PILOTS tell our leaders and Chairpeople we appreciate them. It is by no means excessive.

 

[fischman]

You seem to forget, that the dollars for the pilot contract come from somewhere, they don't just suddenly appear.

The real sacrifice comes from the rank and file employees that work equally hard to support the operation. Wages that would get spread more evenly throughout the company get dumped into the contract, and rank and file employees get the shaft because the payroll bucket doesn't change.

Not once, not one single time in a year of posting have I seen one word that supports the rank and file employees that take it on the chin when a union contract is put in place.

These are the people that work more hours a month, in many cases the same if not more education and have paid their dues no different than any pilot but chose or were forced to a life in a support position rather than flying. I don't want to read the hallowed crap about the responsibility of flying, because that stands for itself. I get that and pilots should be compensated accordingly. However, it shouldn't be at the expense of the rest of the company which is exactly what happens when a CBA is forced onto a company.

Why is there such disrespect from the union members on this board? When a CBA happens, and pilots get their QOL, the money comes from the company and the rest of the employees get screwed.

I understand a little bit about sacrifice after being part of the colateral damage caused by the scorched earth attitude of two unions.

It seems to me that the "rank and file" employees need a union. They are really getting $h!t on by the management.

 

[gunfyter]

The real sacrifice comes from the rank and file employees that work equally hard to support the operation. Wages that would get spread more evenly throughout the company get dumped into the contract, and rank and file employees get the shaft because the payroll bucket doesn't change.
.

You know... I was telling my wife, the ER Nurse ... Wages at the hospital should be spread more evenly ... The DOCTORS should not get so much so the Nurses and other support people at the Hospital don't get dumped on because of the Doctors compensation....

You know those Doc's get all the money and the payroll bucket doesn't change....

 

[netjetwife]

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule? Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they? I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

 

[B19 Flyer]

Insulting and disrespectful piece of crap

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment.

Untrue. The best that I've seen are those that could not fly, or chose not to fly. They will run circles around most pilots with knowledge of the industry and more importantly, how to get things done. Without those people, not a single airplane flies. I can't believe the disrespect you have for the very people that keep pilots safe by making sure that the aircraft is mechanically sound, fueled properly and planned properly.


Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule?

Holidays? Who the hell do you think are there on the ground on those holidays keeping the operation going? Pilots are the only ones that work holidays? NOT!

Who picks up the slack when all it all breaks loose when the weather disrupts the operations? Who makes sure that pilots have transportation, are scheduled properly, have mechanically sound airplanes. Working mostly at night I might add and away from their families, on the road, in foreign countries, doing anything necessary to keep the airplane safe. Their work environment isn’t the pristine, clean location of a flight deck (not cleaned by the pilots I might add), a limousine or a hotel room.

Each function above keeps the pilot well rested and safe with a mechanically sound airplane. It is a direct impact on safety. When a union puts this in contract, who the hell do you think administrates it? Not the pilots, because if they did, they wouldn’t feel they needed to force their will on the rest of the company would they?

The pilot isn't the one fixing an airplane outdoors in Alaska or changing an engine in the desert is he? No, the pilot stays comfortable at the hotel and assumes the airplane will be fine when they arrive. The reason that pilots and passengers are safe in the tube, is because everybody else does their job because they too have made the efforts and have the training.

What an insulting person you are.

Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?

Tell an A&P mechanic or 121 dispatcher that and see how far your husband gets next time he needs help. Boy, you are the most insulting piece of work I've ever seen on this board.


I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD.

I have a college education and hold multiple certificates and ratings with an appreciation that you don't have for the effort is takes to earn and hold them. Just because a pilot is in the airplane, doesn't mean that they have skills that ground people don't. As a matter of fact, the majority of pilots are like a fish out of water when adjusting to ground duties. As far as my experience is concerned, it's a lot harder on the ground than it is in the air. In the air, the pilot needs only worry about one flight at a time, their own. If the rest of the "support people" do their job, the pilot will never have a problem.

Your disrespect is astounding.


PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

You are not a pilot.

Being married to a pilot, isn't the same thing.

All you are is a wanna be that is riding the efforts of your husband.

I've walked the walk, have you?

www.unionfacts.com

Unbelievable disrespect, and for those NJ employees that read this, I hope that they bring this to the attention of those pilot and union leaders around so they understand that specific union supporters feel that rank and file employees are not needed.

You’re a piece of work…

One last thing, about CS pay:

There are non-union companies that get it done without having to pay union dues and put up with union turmoil.

 

[fischman]

Unbelievable disrespect, and for those NJ employees that read this, I hope that they bring this to the attention of those pilot and union leaders around so they understand that specific union supporters feel that rank and file employees are not needed.

You’re a piece of work…

One last thing, about CS pay:

There are non-union companies that get it done without having to pay union dues and put up with union turmoil.

B19,

You are talking about yourself, not NJW. You are the MOST disrespectful, hateful, nasty person I have ever had an exchange with.

Having said that, I enjoy proving you wrong on a daily basis.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

You are talking about yourself, not NJW. You are the MOST disrespectful, hateful, nasty person I have ever had an exchange with.

Having said that, I enjoy proving you wrong on a daily basis.

I don't agree that you've ever proven me wrong.

However, I challenge you to prove me wrong now. I want to see if you agree that the wife of your NJ friend, isn't blowing smoke that she doesn't understand or know squat about.

Are you telling me that you agree with the statements?


She wrote:

"All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment."



Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

"support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they?"

Prove me wrong.


She also wrote:

I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have.

Prove me wrong.

Do you really agree with her statements above?

Let's me point out, that the person she is married to was trained by the US Goverment, and while I respect that he put his life on the line as I do all the former military pilots I work with and around every day, he, like them, didn't pay to become a pilot like the vast majority of the rest us had to. If he had to pay, would he have made the same choices?

In addition, a degree from any college isn't cheap, becoming an A & P or a dispatcher isn't cheap either, but they are included in the rank and file employees I am talking about and she is disrespecting. Take away any of them, the plane doesn't fly.

For the most part, you are going to have to go digging pretty deep to find a post where I have called somebody any kind of name even though they are leveled at me on a regular basis. Even now, I'm not calling names, but I'm being highly discriptive of my opinion on her lack of knowledge. She's clueless.

Because you don't agree with my stance on unions does not mean that I'm disrespectful or nasty.

She deserves special treatment, because she posts with only collateral knowledge. She has a right to post like I do, but has disrespected the largest group of employees with her statements at NJ, the rank and file employees.

Any pilot I know that is worth his salt would have never wrote what she wrote. They do respect what mechanics and rank and file employees do.

 

[netjetwife]

Fisch, you are exactly right. The FUD-Spinner is really reaching now. He can't argue with the truth that pilots are professionals who should be compensated as such so he's trying to twist my words. FUD..FUD..FUD..I merely suggested people have choices when it comes to pursuing a career, and I speculated on reasons why support personnel may not be interested in being a pilot. Pointing out that the unusual lifestyle isn't for everyone in no way diminishes the role played by the support team on the ground. False accusations go hand in hand with FUD! Read it in Confessions of a Union Buster.

GF, did you think "rank and file employees" meant mechanics? I didn't. I took that to mean the folks who work in a supportive/administrative capacity not directly in operations. It goes without saying how critical proper maintenance is to safety. I didn't think I had to spell that out to pilots... I guess I could have expanded on my holiday comment. I thought it was obvious, but to clarify, after their shift the support folks are home with their families while pilots spend the holiday in a hotel room. Not to mention, birthdays, anniversaries, family events, etc. that are frequently missed.

Fudspinner tried to claim that giving pilots a professional wage would "shaft" the "rank and file employees" who make the "real sacrifice". NJA pilots were told the same FUDamn thing. It didn't happen. His latest tirade FUD..FUD..FUD..goes on to attack those at home (spouses, for my opinions are shared by others) who truly do make the sacrifices that keep the planes in the air. When it comes to support on the ground, every frac pilot that is a spouse and a parent knows what I'm talking about. You also know that your family deserves to be compensated like other professional families who have: health care provided as a benefit; decent housing; reliable transportation; savings; college funds; money for extras, etc. Those are so common they're taken for granted by professionals, but many frac pilots can't complete the list... Frac families qualifying for govt assistance is WRONG and no amount of FUD can alter that fact! :angryfire

Yes, I'm a frac pilot's wife and as such am well qualified to offer the family perspective. My husband is a leader in 1108 and that gives me a front row seat that enables me to speak with credibility and knowledge about the only union in the frac industry. In contrast, Fudspinner's biased posts don't apply to 1108. I post here to offer support to those seeking a contract (another professional staple) and fair wages because my husband's FO salary qualified our kids for the "poor kid" lunch program at their public school and I can easily empathize with underpaid frac pilots. B19/FS posts here to spread misinformation and hate. I leave it to the discerning readers to decide whose posts they prefer. Suffice it to say, the encouraging PMs I receive are always appreciated...

BTW, for those who haven't heard, 1108 recently showed their appreciation to the support workers in CMH in a very tangible way. The gesture was well received and I was proud of 1108 leaders for reaching out to the other employees. I've heard that the NJA command center in CMH is a fascinating place and I hope that the kids and I can accompany my husband to a meeting there someday. One like yesterday's would be perfect. My husband said it was well worth pulling some pilots off the line. He thinks a video will be posted on Crew Ops.

Fudspinner's intimidation tactics won't work. The Executive Board and the MEC are familiar with my supportive posts and I've met some of those leaders personally. Additionally, all informed NJ employees are aware of the good relationship between the Union and the Company. Many know who NJW is married to. My family's name is well respected among the pilots and in CMH because we advocate fairness, respect for all employees, and a strong work ethic.
Slogging thru the FUD,
Netjetwife

PS Guitar Guy, it is getting very deep. You're right I might have to get some taller boots.... Does anyone have a pair of over-the-knee waders I can borrow?