FLOPS Impass?

[shanes123]

Flops are selling off alot of planes..Just look around there all over the internet and Magazines. And they are cancelling orders or selling the plane off the day they get it..No rumor just fact there

 

[netjetwife]

Great post, Hog!! Sorry, Foz, I know it's full of those pesky straight facts and the fudspinners whine when they hear it...kinda like dogs with a high pitched noise...they go berserk but the rest of us are fine hearing the truth. However, let's be fair here. Your own post was quite hard-hitting, too, when it comes to posting history and facts.... For example...

Your point about upper management shoving cuts down workers' throats was so real and unvarnished that I was having flashbacks about my husband getting furloughed from AA while the executives were caught (by the vigilant union) scrambling to exempt their money from the slash and burn program. Yeah, we got burned there, but management was wielding the torch...:angryfire

BACK OFF, B19. DO NOT QUOTE MY POST WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I DO NOT WANT MY WORDS TWISTED IN A FUDSPINNER'S POST. I AM CLAIMING OWNERSHIP OF MY OWN HISTORY.

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

Flops are selling off alot of planes..Just look around there all over the internet and Magazines. And they are cancelling orders or selling the plane off the day they get it..No rumor just fact there

can somebody "in the know" elaborate intelligently about this? thanks!

 

[cjs]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. Look at the young guys at the regionals who would kill for your job, and ask yourself again .. am I underpaid? If you don't think you're making enough, then find better compensation elsewhere. Can't do it? Then this is what you're worth. And only a scumbag would drag his fellow employees into this. Let every man decide for himself what he's worth.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Great post, Hog!! Sorry, Foz, I know it's full of those pesky straight facts and the fudspinners whine when they hear it...kinda like dogs with a high pitched noise...they go berserk but the rest of us are fine hearing the truth. However, let's be fair here. Your own post was quite hard-hitting, too, when it comes to posting history and facts.... For example...

Your point about upper management shoving cuts down workers' throats was so real and unvarnished that I was having flashbacks about my husband getting furloughed from AA while the executives were caught (by the vigilant union) scrambling to exempt their money from the slash and burn program. Yeah, we got burned there, but management was wielding the torch...:angryfire

BACK OFF, B19. DO NOT QUOTE MY POST WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I DO NOT WANT MY WORDS TWISTED IN A FUDSPINNER'S POST. I AM CLAIMING OWNERSHIP OF MY OWN HISTORY.

Back off? ROFL!!! :laugh:

Here is your exact, disgusting quote:

Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. Maybe they prefer being home with their families every night? Sleeping in their own beds? Being home on holidays? Not working a 14/10 schedule? Not being responsible for the lives of pax? Not having their license at risk every flight? Oh wait, support folks don't have to have a license from the FAA do they? I bet they recognize that pilots have additional skills and experience that support folks don't have because they're dealing with reality--not flinging FUD. PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

Embarrassing, disgusting and completely full of disrespect for all non-pilot fraction and industry employees.

There it is, in your own words. Live with it, and I'll be more than happy to compile all of the original posts to show there was no word twisting involved.

There is no editing, no changes, no word twisting.

Want me to dig up the others? It's not very hard.

 

[B19 Flyer]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. Look at the young guys at the regionals who would kill for your job, and ask yourself again .. am I underpaid? If you don't think you're making enough, then find better compensation elsewhere. Can't do it? Then this is what you're worth. And only a scumbag would drag his fellow employees into this. Let every man decide for himself what he's worth.

Makes sense to me, and while it's not a popular opinion on this board (as you are soon to find out), that's been what I've been stating for ages.

 

[learflyer]

If this guy is really Bob Tyler, this stuff is really disturbing to read.....

 

[gunfyter]

19,

I could have chosen to invest (and study) to become an MD ... but I did not. How is that disrespectful? ... To non-Doctor employees at a Hospital. Like lab-techs or nurses?

when you need surgery ... you care mostly about who the doctor is holding the scalpel as you lie on the operating table. You appreciate the people who prepared you before you see the Doctor ... but ... Its all about seeing that Doctor.

This not disrespect ... it is fact.

While planes don't move unless paper moves and money moves ... You care mostly about the crew flying your trip. This is why every Frac company's website brags primarily how good their crews are.

We have great accountants at our company ... but not a word about them on the company website.

 

[brokeflyer]

leave b19 alone, he cant help it. They have no age verification process at this site. So the kiddies can post on here.

 

[Frac Cap]

can somebody "in the know" elaborate intelligently about this? thanks!

M.S. said that we had planed on getting 13 new aircraft this year. But do to "economic conditions" we canceled most of those orders and that is non reversible. I believe he said we would only be getting about 4 new aircraft this year (to replace the 10+ year aircraft). But here is where it gets interesting, he doesn't say how many aircraft he will be selling this year. I do know we have been selling many aircraft from our fleet. So by the end of the year, it is anybodies guess how many aircraft we will have left.

 

[hogbody]

CJS,
In the case of the Flight Options Pilots, you're completely missing the point. You've oversimplified the situation so your position seems reasonable to those who are unaware of the history.
The FO pilot group is composed almost entirely of mature, experienced professionals. These folks agreed to work at a job for sub-par compensation, with the understanding they were going to contribute to a potentially great organization. They were promised pay in line with NetJets.
Unfortunately, poor management has squandered the company's potential, and broken many long held promises. Most of these pilots have spent from 5 to 11 years of their lives waiting for inept managers to make good on their promises.
In your world, these guys should move on to what? Another "great" job, only to find out they've been lied to again? How many decades of this crap should these guys have to spend chasing broken promises? When you're 70, and living under a bridge, it's a little too late to realize you should have dug in your heels and fought for what was yours. Running from the fight is the cowards way out.

 

[cjs]

Hogbody, if the company broke a contract, then by all means, cram it up their ass in court.

Assuming you're right ... sticking with a company .. earning low wages, knowing full well the mgt was incompetent and untrustworthy .. what did you expect was going to happen?

 

[gunfyter]

This really isn't complicated. If you unionize - you essentially force your employer pay you more than he/she thinks you're worth. ...

.. and you force your employer to obey the FARs like those pesky duty and rest rules ... and others like flying the airplane within legal weight and balance limits etc..

Your employer can't afford to pay what you are worth. Only what the job is worth.

Sometimes an employer needs to be educated on just what your job is worth. Just like athletes and film actors ... sometimes you need an AGENT to negotiate this for you. Thats why you unionize.

you might be a good athlete, or movie actor, or pilot ... but you are not a good negotiator.

Why should you earn less because of your negotiating skills?

 

[cjs]

.. and you force your employer to obey the FARs like those pesky duty and rest rules ... and others like flying the airplane within legal weight and balance limits etc..

Your employer can't afford to pay what you are worth. Only what the job is worth.

Sometimes an employer needs to be educated on just what your job is worth. Just like athletes and film actors ... sometimes you need an AGENT to negotiate this for you. Thats why you unionize.

Agreed, there's nothing wrong with negotiating labor rates on a group basis. However, when doing so, you transform your labor into a commodity. What does it cost to have a pilot fly X from A to B? Not you, or Bruce, or Bob, but "a pilot".

Now that your labor rate is being negotiated as a commodity, you have to ask yourself one question: If every pilot at FLOPS were to leave tomorrow, would FLOPS be able to refill those slots at the current pay rate? If not, you indeed are underpaid. If so, you are either paid at the market rate, or overpaid.

I'll leave that one for you to decide.

 

[netjetwife]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

 

[B19 Flyer]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

NJW, no, it’s not backwards. CJS is right on the button.

Yes, you can bring a union onto the company and negotiate better payroll for a specific work group, but the rest of the company suffers and the business model is changed. The company now must find ways to create additional revenue or the end product now must be sold for a higher amount to make up for the higher wages. The rest of the employee group will wind up earning less because the pilot group in this case will earn a proportionally higher amount than their peers.

There is no way to measure the human “cost” involved by the turmoil created by unions or the inability for a company to react to market pressures during economic downturn and upturns. Contract issues such as scope clauses and seniority lists have traditionally tied carrier’s hands and in some cases have severely prevented growth and increased revenue.

Non-pilot employees take the brunt of the turmoil with the classic “Game On” attitudes from union supporters coupled with continued disrespect from those such as yourself that feel it’s all about the pilots and not about the industry, the company and the non-pilot employees that make it all happen.

It was very public at NJ that during union negotiations the company was stagnated because there was no way to predict the cost of the contract. As a result, aircraft were chartered driving up costs that would not have happened otherwise. I’m certain the union didn’t care about what NJ paid for that as it was an accepted part of negotiations.

A little under two years ago I made certain statements about 1108 and FLOPS that are beginning to come true. I made statements that they were looking at three years of turmoil during negotiations (two down, one to go), a stagnant company that was unable to grow or react to market pressures and that pilots would be frustrated.

Unions are slow to react under pressure, and right now in today’s economic climate, 1108 has missed the boat. It is not going to get any better, and the FLOPS guys are looking at pure hell right now because 1108 didn’t get it done. If they were so good, then they should have been able to convince management that the compensation package they were offering would benefit the pilots and the company.

Union supporters want to blame the company, but while they are sitting there stagnant, their counterparts over at CS have been able to operate without the restriction of the union. CS let NJ take the big union bite, then adjusted accordingly keeping the union off the property while retaining the ability to react to market pressures.

If I were a FLOPS guy, I’d be bailing out for CS in a heartbeat. With all of the carriers bowing to the economic climate and the high cost of fuel, the competition will be greatly increased.

No, NJW, the FLOPS union supporters are getting exactly what they asked for. A year from now, nothing is going to have changed, and these poor guys are going to continue blaming everybody in the world except for themselves and 1108 as all the rest of the non-union fractionals succeed and grow around them, because they can.

 

[Hawker dude]

NJW, no, it’s not backwards. CJS is right on the button.

Yes, you can bring a union onto the company and negotiate better payroll for a specific work group, but the rest of the company suffers and the business model is changed. The company now must find ways to create additional revenue or the end product now must be sold for a higher amount to make up for the higher wages. The rest of the employee group will wind up earning less because the pilot group in this case will earn a proportionally higher amount than their peers.

There is no way to measure the human “cost” involved by the turmoil created by unions or the inability for a company to react to market pressures during economic downturn and upturns. Contract issues such as scope clauses and seniority lists have traditionally tied carrier’s hands and in some cases have severely prevented growth and increased revenue.

Non-pilot employees take the brunt of the turmoil with the classic “Game On” attitudes from union supporters coupled with continued disrespect from those such as yourself that feel it’s all about the pilots and not about the industry, the company and the non-pilot employees that make it all happen.

It was very public at NJ that during union negotiations the company was stagnated because there was no way to predict the cost of the contract. As a result, aircraft were chartered driving up costs that would not have happened otherwise. I’m certain the union didn’t care about what NJ paid for that as it was an accepted part of negotiations.

A little under two years ago I made certain statements about 1108 and FLOPS that are beginning to come true. I made statements that they were looking at three years of turmoil during negotiations (two down, one to go), a stagnant company that was unable to grow or react to market pressures and that pilots would be frustrated.

Unions are slow to react under pressure, and right now in today’s economic climate, 1108 has missed the boat. It is not going to get any better, and the FLOPS guys are looking at pure hell right now because 1108 didn’t get it done. If they were so good, then they should have been able to convince management that the compensation package they were offering would benefit the pilots and the company.

Union supporters want to blame the company, but while they are sitting there stagnant, their counterparts over at CS have been able to operate without the restriction of the union. CS let NJ take the big union bite, then adjusted accordingly keeping the union off the property while retaining the ability to react to market pressures.

If I were a FLOPS guy, I’d be bailing out for CS in a heartbeat. With all of the carriers bowing to the economic climate and the high cost of fuel, the competition will be greatly increased.

No, NJW, the FLOPS union supporters are getting exactly what they asked for. A year from now, nothing is going to have changed, and these poor guys are going to continue blaming everybody in the world except for themselves and 1108 as all the rest of the non-union fractionals succeed and grow around them, because they can.

you can't be a pilot. if you are you are the worst kind.

selling yourself short man.

I spent 40K to put myself through college and flight school. so I deserve more for that.

I leave my wife and kids for almost half the year, I deserve more for that.

a pilots pay or work rules should never be compared to a scheduler or dispatcher or anyother empoyee group.

wake up B19. go back to the schedulling boards where you belong.

 

[netjetwife]

HD, I agree with you that along with the obvious factor of the going rate, professionals frequently mention the expense of time and money they spent in preparing themselves for their career. Likewise, the demands made on their lifestyle are part of the overall compensation formula. The majority of frac pilots understand this well and all of these factors are considered at the bargaining table.

CONTRACTS ARE COMMONPLACE IN OUR SOCIETY ESPECIALLY AMONG PROFESSIONALS. NEGOTIATIONS ARE A LEGALLY PROTECTED RIGHT.

 

[FastJP4]

There is a market rate for a frac pilot. You will see the term "industry standard" used here frequently. It refers to the compensation package and the working conditions. There is no reason Options pilots should undersell their aviation skills. Combining their collective efforts to obtain a contract guaranteeing them the going rate for their expertise is a legally protected right they have chosen to exercise.

CJS, you have it backwards; you don't look to those entering the industry to set the standard. The rate is set by those already performing the job. When Ops pilots look to their 3000 plus peers who are better compensated for the same duties and responsibilities it is obvious they have some catching up to do.

Well stated NJW. Given the conditions the FLOPS pilots operate under - they have every right to organize if that is what THEY choose. There IS an "industry standard" for all segements of flying. If FLOPS had decent management, there would have been no need to organize (see CS). But they don't, and the only options available to them are to take it up the a_s, or to organize. I can certainately understand why they have chosen the latter.

Fast

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, Fast... there are a number of good posts on this thread dealing with the reality that Ops pilots are underpaid for performing specialized skills and being directly responsible for the lives of their pax.

SMART MANAGERS LIKE THOSE AT NJ AND CS MOTIVATE WORKERS WITH CARROTS. THE FLOPS DRIVE THEIR PILOTS AWAY WITH STICKS. BANDING TOGETHER TO INSIST ON RESPECTFUL TREATMENT AND PROFESSIONAL COMPENSATION IS THE LOGICAL SOLUTION.