Freedom loses all 50 seat flying for Delta.

[Uncle Bunkle]

We have now become the new April 7th Mesa class.

It is clueless people like yourself who continue to allow J.O. and Mesa Air Group to bring down the pilot profession. Why on earth would you go to Mesa?

 

[erikgigem]

sorry for you pdub, but mesa is the bottom feeder bringing the industry down. delta got what it asked for, cheap labor, and they have paid for it with terrible results.

the mesa pilots are reeping what they sow, chasing quick upgrades and 90 seat aircraft flown for 50 seat rates and no work rules only helped leverage managements against their work forces.

jo is so slick mesa will probably survive, but all pilots should be hoping this is the begining of the end for them. delta should have done this long ago, hopefully the 900s are next.

Yeah - both Comair and Chautauqua Florida-based crews paid for Delta's desire for a cheapy poor-performance regional airline. Both of those airlines lost their crew bases in Orlando, displacing 100s of people, disrupting families, schools, etc..

 

[pdub20s]

Are you aware of how Mesa came to fly for Delta? We were flying for US Air. When the merger with America West went through the non wholly owned's were given a chance to either invest in the new air line, AKA pay to play or find new digs. JO decided to find new digs, so Air whisky got all our US AIR flying. They invested a huge amount of money. I don't go up to Air Whisky guys and blame them for my situation. They lost there contract with United and landed at US AIR. Not those pilots fault.
So JO went to Delta. I had a home and life in Charlotte. I have had four bases since that time in addition have been put on the Freedom certificate and have had to suffer through the ignorance of pilots who don't understand that none of us are Freedom A.

Our Union here at Mesa is very weak. They let the company do about anything it wants to us and so we suffer. I feel terrible for the Aloha guys and gals. I've said this from the beginning when JO sent us there, that our Walmart was going to put a good company out of business. It looks as though it has happened.

We've had 787 pilots quit last year. I have personally talked several fo's in to leaving for there family's benefit.

The best thing to do would be to have your union leaders contact ours and show them what Ball$ look like and where they can be found. Though our guys will be busy flying. Every time I turn around we've got a new MEC.

Next best thing to do would be to quite rewarding our chief pilots with good jobs. These guys are the Indian scouts who showed the cavalry where to find the Indians. Our management pilots should replace Benedict Arnold in the lexicon of traitor.

To address your charge, blaming Mesa for you loosing your house is as stupid as me blaming Air Whisky for me loosing Charlotte and US Air. Different situation but blameless pilot group. These decisions are made by the bean counters. Not pilots.

This is not to say there aren't legit complaints about Mesa. We have essentially no work rules. No rigs, No duty day, No line guarantee. And if that weren't enough we get paid less hourly too. We can be JR manned at any time, line holder or not. Our reserves get 8 days off, ALL reserves 8 days off (28 day bid). And on almost all days on reserve you will be sitting at the airport on ready reserve. You should see our crew room in JFK (tiny). In addition almost all lines are constructed with 1-2 days off at a time with one three. This is the same for line holders. This against our contract, our union says nothing. Well thats not entirely true. The Union does say "ask not what your union can do for you, ask what you can do for your union". Not kidding either. I would have to say they picked a pretty accurate slogan.

So if you want to attack us for those things than that would be fair. I will not rehash the Freedom A debacle. But when we role over on stuff that we have in our contract it's just indefensible BS! We need REAL leadership from our union. Just as a community needs REAL leadership from there elected officials. Because I don't like how the war in Iraq is going doesn't mean I have to run for president. But this is what our union will say. I pay for representation. Now REPRESENT me!!!!!

As far as the loosing the Delta flying is concerned. Its not all that suprising with the operation our SOC runs. Wether we are in breach of contract is hard to say. Our management told us we were going to win the Hawaiian law suit as well. And we didn't. The fact that so many people on here are happy about a pilot group loosing there jobs is really a poor reflection on us as a group. Sorry about being long winded.

Well Put. A lot of these posters on here just sit back and talk trash behind a keeyboard. And know not what they say. But when it comes to them riding in our jump-seat, all you hear is "Hey captain do you mind if I can hitch a ride home?" Come talking this trash at my flightdeck door and see how far you will get.But I would respect you for having the guts to stick by your guns and expressing your own opinion. But once again, If anybody has a problem with the MAG pilot group. You can Meet me tomorrow at Gate 25 in the Delta terminal and we can discuss.

 

[AWACO]

..... You can Meet me tomorrow at Gate 25 in the Delta terminal and we can discuss.

Ya so then we can fight about it right? Are you are truck driver or a professional pilot?

 

[Simon Says]

Pdub20s,

Are you an original Freedumber? If so, I got your name on my list of jumpseat denials.

As for riding on freedom...I did it once. MEM to PHX, and it was like going down on a hooker. I showered when I got to my destination of PHX, but just couldn't get that skanky taste out of my mouth. I should of just waited the extra 2 hours to ride on mainline NWA.

 

[pdub20s]

Ya so then we can fight about it right? Are you are truck driver or a professional pilot?

No we can discuss what your gripes or misunderstandings maybe. When I say we can "discuss" its more aimed at the folks who sit behind a keyboard all day and quote what other people have told them instead of researching the facts. People are grossly misinformed about our Pilot Group as a whole.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Well Put. A lot of these posters on here just sit back and talk trash behind a keeyboard. And know not what they say. But when it comes to them riding in our jump-seat, all you hear is "Hey captain do you mind if I can hitch a ride home?" Come talking this trash at my flightdeck door and see how far you will get.But I would respect you for having the guts to stick by your guns and expressing your own opinion. But once again, If anybody has a problem with the MAG pilot group. You can Meet me tomorrow at Gate 25 in the Delta terminal and we can discuss.

geez, what are you going to do, give them a stern look?

 

[pdub20s]

Pdub20s,

Are you an original Freedumber? If so, I got your name on my list of jumpseat denials.

As for riding on freedom...I did it once. MEM to PHX, and it was like going down on a hooker. I showered when I got to my destination of PHX, but just couldn't get that skanky taste out of my mouth. I should of just waited the extra 2 hours to ride on mainline NWA.

No , once again..THERE ARE NO FREEDOM A LISTERS ON PROPERTY

 

[Simon Says]

No we can discuss what your gripes or misunderstandings maybe. When I say we can "discuss" its more aimed at the folks who sit behind a keyboard all day and quote what other people have told them instead of researching the facts. People are grossly misinformed about our Pilot Group as a whole.

Your original pilot group did exactly what Go jets is doing now. I don't hold you responsible if you came on afterward, but you have to live with the legacy of your nasty airline.

And by all means if you try and defend it.....it is like a german defending what Hitler did.

I have been in this business for 15 years and still a newbie compared to some other old timers. If you are in right seat at Mesa I would put you right around 1-2 years if that. So, my friend......defend Freedom Airlines to me.

 

[Simon Says]

No , once again..THERE ARE NO FREEDOM A LISTERS ON PROPERTY

come on now....I have a list of 76 people and it is only 4-5 years old. You are telling me not one of those vile persons are still there.

 

[pdub20s]

come on now....I have a list of 76 people and it is only 4-5 years old. You are telling me not one of those vile persons are still there.

Well there is one... he is not a line pilot. They all jumped ship.

 

[Soverytired]

And im surprised other MESA pilots on this board dont stick up for the group.

Now is not the time.

The Aloha pilots are pretty pissed and hurt right now, and they're looking for a scapegoat. Go! is an easy target, and certainly was the final nail in their coffin. Go! was unquestionably a proximate cause for their demise. And while extrapolating the blame onto 1500+ other Mesa pilots is unfair, I don't think now is the time for a reasoned debate.

The wounds are WAY too fresh.

 

[USCtrojan]

Now is not the time.

The Aloha pilots are pretty pissed and hurt right now, and they're looking for a scapegoat. Go! is an easy target, and certainly was the final nail in their coffin. Go! was unquestionably a proximate cause for their demise. And while extrapolating the blame onto 1500+ other Mesa pilots is unfair, I don't think now is the time for a reasoned debate.

The wounds are WAY too fresh.

I think Aloha will have the last laugh after OCT '08 when they win their $150 million dollar lawsuit. It will be appealed, but I'm sure the judge will force MAG to post a bond for it.

Trojan

 

[Soverytired]

I think Aloha will have the last laugh after OCT '08 when they win their $150 million dollar lawsuit. It will be appealed, but I'm sure the judge will force MAG to post a bond for it.

Trojan

Maybe. Possibly. Even Likely?

Aloha will have been out of business for years by the time any of that gets settled. And MAG will go out of business if after years of appeals they lose that judgment.

So 2 pilot groups will be gone. Lawyers will get rich, CEO's will make bank then retire, and the pilots will get nothing.

2500+ pilots dispersed into the workforce will carry grudges against pilots they've never met for the rest of their careers.

I'm not really sure who's "getting the last laugh" in this scenario.

 

[USCtrojan]

Maybe. Possibly. Even Likely?

Aloha will have been out of business for years by the time any of that gets settled. And MAG will go out of business if after years of appeals they lose that judgment.

So 2 pilot groups will be gone. Lawyers will get rich, CEO's will make bank then retire, and the pilots will get nothing.

2500+ pilots dispersed into the workforce will carry grudges against pilots they've never met for the rest of their careers.

I'm not really sure who's "getting the last laugh" in this scenario.

Aloha is still operating a cargo operation. They are very much still in business. Their passenger side went down. If they can find some money they can restart their operation. They lost their passenger side service because of predatory practices already proved by Hawaiian. Proving it with Aloha will be much easier. MAG is going to lose this one, they've already lost their first, and Aloha has more evidence and now had to shut down their passenger service.

Trojan

 

[Soverytired]

Aloha is still operating a cargo operation. They are very much still in business. Their passenger side went down. If they can find some money they can restart their operation. They lost their passenger side service because of predatory practices already proved by Hawaiian. Proving it with Aloha will be much easier. MAG is going to lose this one, they've already lost their first, and Aloha has more evidence and now had to shut down their passenger service.
Trojan

IF:

• Aloha wins their suit 6 months from now
• Aloha wins $150 million
• Mesa appeals for a couple of years
• Mesa loses appeals, and is forced to pay
• Mesa actually is still around, and actually has $150 million (both HUGE ifs)
• Upon receipt of payment, years from now, the moneybags at Aloha even want to start up passenger operations again given the numerous better investment opportunities out there.

(That's a lot of "ifs")

Then I suppose Aloha pilots "win". In the meantime, most if not all will have moved on to other jobs.

I'm not really opposed to any of the above "ifs" coming around. But if this is "victory", surely it is a Pyhrric* one, at best.



(*"Pyrrhic victory" is a victory with devastating cost to the victor.)

 

[lindsaya99]

To address your charge, blaming Mesa for you loosing your house is as stupid as me blaming Air Whisky for me loosing Charlotte and US Air. Different situation but blameless pilot group. These decisions are made by the bean counters. Not pilots.

You are joking right? How can you compare getting displaced to from your domicile to me losing my job?

 

[WateryGrave]

FVCK MESA!!!!

FVCK FREEDUMB!!!!

FVCK JO!!!!

Good riddance

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This is not a sterile world, if one chooses to work for a crooked/shoddy employer, he/she is an enabler.
http://www.answers.com/topic/enable
And is responsible for the results. Messa guys you reap what yea sow.
PBR

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

This is factually inaccurate...

Well there is one... he is not a line pilot. They all jumped ship.

Actually, there are several Freedumb A listers still flying and serving various management, instruction positions at MAG. I just saw one the other day in the crew room in PHX.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

You can thank Delta for that one...

I'm one of those 100 pilots that was furloughed at the end of 2005. My wife and I ended up losing the house we were building at the time. Thanks Mesa pilots!

Don't you think that had more to do with Delta having a little payback from that strike back in 2001 (or was it 2000? - I forget)? Delta feels like they learned a lesson - they put all their eggs in one basket in ComAir at CVG and got burned.

You are REALLY reaching if you are blaming Delta and ComAir's financial issues on the Mesa pilot group. Nice try though.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Don't worry guys...

JO is doing a MUCH better job of putting Mesa out of business than the Aloha lawsuit ever could. You might not have to wait until October. Cost are rising and revenue is rapidly falling.

JO is doubling down in Hawaii by adding more flights now that he has eliminated Aloha. Ego! was already losing millions before, and now it will lose money at an even faster rate. His insanity is almost comical.

What surprises me most is that the institutional investors are not raising holy he!! about JO's "performance" AND the board of directors actually extending JO's contract.

 

[relief tube]

in that case. PM me the routing number to your checking account. so you can pay my bills and etc while i look for another job

How f--king ironic. How about an Aloha guy instead who's a lot more deserving.

I call BS on your comment. I would almost bet the farm that as long as you have more than a year's tenure there, that furlough's wont touch you. The only ones affected will be the 300 hour 21 year old wonder pilots that should have built more time in the first place.

 

[B.T.Justice]

Over the years mesa has held regional wages down, and put more workers out of work than you realize. I was with ACA and I was based in ORD, then IAD. When UAL went bankrupt, Bain Capital (UAL bk consultants) pointed to ACA / AWAC / SKYW, and laid out the new contract rates. They went through the books line by line. Pilot wages...too expensive. Hotels....too expensive. Paper for the copier...too expensive. (i'm not kidding)

We had to meet Mesa prices or be shown the door. ACA had guts and exited UAL with dignity. I eventualy lost my job, and it's funny; I don't remember any Mesa pilots feeling sympthathy for the 1700 ACA pilots that lost their jobs.....because of Mesa.

If Mesa didn't undercut everyone so bad, ACA and AWAC would still be UAL carriers. So sorry, I won't be shedding any tears.

I think in time you'll find out that most other regionals are far better. They even provide single occupancy accomadations on stand ups!

 

[fly4surf]

Ego!

good one.

 

[Medeco]

Over the years mesa has held regional wages down, and put more workers out of work than you realize. I was with ACA and I was based in ORD, then IAD. When UAL went bankrupt, Bain Capital (UAL bk consultants) pointed to ACA / AWAC / SKYW, and laid out the new contract rates. They went through the books line by line. Pilot wages...too expensive. Hotels....too expensive. Paper for the copier...too expensive. (i'm not kidding)

We had to meet Mesa prices or be shown the door. ACA had guts and exited UAL with dignity. I eventualy lost my job, and it's funny; I don't remember any Mesa pilots feeling sympthathy for the 1700 ACA pilots that lost their jobs.....because of Mesa.

If Mesa didn't undercut everyone so bad, ACA and AWAC would still be UAL carriers. So sorry, I won't be shedding any tears.

I think in time you'll find out that most other regionals are far better. They even provide single occupancy accomadations on stand ups!

That pretty much sums it up for you Mesa newbies and others who have short term memories.

Medeco

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I think in time you'll find out that most other regionals are far better. They even provide single occupancy accomadations on stand ups!

Then by implication, Mesa doesn't provide that? **** mesa!

 

[WSurf]

And here is Your Boss at Mesa.

Makes for lovely reading!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_G._Ornstein

 

[DrewBlows]

Don't you think that had more to do with Delta having a little payback from that strike back in 2001 (or was it 2000? - I forget)? Delta feels like they learned a lesson - they put all their eggs in one basket in ComAir at CVG and got burned.

You are REALLY reaching if you are blaming Delta and ComAir's financial issues on the Mesa pilot group. Nice try though.

Airlines don't make major fleet decisions based on spite. Delta put a significant portion of Comair's flying up for bid to the cheapest bidder during bankruptcy. Not surprisingly, Mesa won a some of that flying. They won the flying because they were the cheapest, it's that simple. Part of the reason they were cheaper than Comair is because they don't pay their employees as much. Another reason is because they had extra airplanes they needed to place due to losing their contract with USAirways.

No one will ever know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Mesa's contract with Delta was only break even or possibly even at a loss. Remember too, Mesa agreed to absorb the leases for the ACA Dorniers in early 2005 to get their foot in the Delta door. There is no way they could have been making a profit while paying the leases of 30 airplanes they didn't even fly. Also, Mesa agreed to fly Dash-8's they didn't even own, some of which proved to be unairworthy.

Given all this it's not surprising Mesa's performance was lacking. They basically put themselves in a position where they couldn't adequately staff an airline because any additional costs would put them in the red. Meanwhile, when Delta decided they wanted to cut flying the first place they looked was Mesa. In bankruptcy Delta could justify poor performance as cutting costs. Out of bankruptcy, Delta could use Mesa's poor performance to justify terminating the contract, once again cutting costs.

Mesa has basically been running a business model which relied on employees showing up for work every day, unfortunately they treated their employees so poorly that many left at their first chance, further hurting Mesa's abysmal performance.

None of this is Mesa's pilot's fault, they don't make business decisions at Mesa, though many of them will pay for managements poor business decisions. Like it or not, many pilots won't be upset to see Mesa suffer. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't one of them.

I was in the hiring pool at ACA when they lost their UAL contract. In fairness there is blame to be spread in that case, but Mesa played a part. In 2005 when Mesa took over D328 lease payments I was at Skyway. In 2006 when Mesa "won" Delta flying, I was furloughed from Comair.

I hold no ill will toward Mesa pilots, but I'm no fan of Mesa management. If there are any Mesa pilots on this forum who are interested in Compass, PM me, I'll be happy to refer you.

 

[WSurf]

I was in the hiring pool at ACA when they lost their UAL contract. In fairness there is blame to be spread in that case, but Mesa played a part. In 2005 when Mesa took over D328 lease payments I was at Skyway. In 2006 when Mesa "won" Delta flying, I was furloughed from Comair.

Jeez, now Compass! Is there a regional you haven't flown for? Damn, I hope the rest of your career goes much better for you bubba.

Good Luck

Oh and insert Sarcasm....