DALPA Rep Says no go to merger....

[jke406]

Me thinks this is far from over. 1st inning, and it's 0/0......

No, it's the first lap at the Indianapolis 500 and all the cars just got wrecked.

 

[another cfii]

Even if this merger stalls, there's still a lot of ways to achieve some of the benefits of a full merger, i.e. codeshare and such.

On a side note, does anybody know how does the AirFrance/KLM merger affect their pilot groups??

 

[~~~^~~~]

Me thinks this is far from over. 1st inning, and it's 0/0......

Actually, that is why it's over. This wasn't a game, and it wasn't time for a shoot the moon and wear them down by an attrition strategy.

It was an offer, which one side refused, and which has now been respectfully withdrawn.

The Delta MEC did a pretty amazing job making the pilots relevant. The NWA team did an equally amazing job making the pilots irrelevant.

No, it's the first lap at the Indianapolis 500 and all the cars just got wrecked.

Yep. Except the teams have back up cars. In this case the cars got wrecked, the track got levelled and there are already plans for a shopping mall in the vacant lot.

Even if this merger stalls, there's still a lot of ways to achieve some of the benefits of a full merger, i.e. codeshare and such.

Another CFI understands how this works. Delta will order the airplanes, as will NWA, and execute the strategy. Growth will be constrained and the "partnership" will be less competitive in the World market, but they will get by.

New hires are cheaper than integration and they'll be flying heavies for half what the NWA guys would make with their longevity and have the bonus of being happy to be aboard.

 

[3ds]

offered and withdrawn by whom?

 

[JohnQ]

Shame the pilots couldnt find middle ground. Would have been a very dominant global airline with what I am told lots of growth.

We (DAL) DID find the middle ground--it was our opening position. We wanted to avoid the stupidity that has so long characterized pilot groups and negotiations.

But the NWA guys couldn't get past their dysfunctional model of "we open with a position just shy of so ridiculous the other side will walk out of the room; then we eventually turn it over to an arbitrator who will make the hard decisions we SHOULD HAVE."

Deep down I think the NWA guys like it--they truly believe that reneging on their duty to reach an accord and ALWAYS turning over the tough agreements to an arbitrator is how things ought to be and in fact are everywhere.

How else can you explain a record of 26 sets of negotiations leading to 26 arbitrations?

Again, too bad. The NWA guys cost themselves (and us DAL guys too) a lot, both near term and long-term, for the sake of clinging to a worn-out playbook that most people tossed in the dumpster years ago.

Reminds me of an old "Twilight Zone" episode. Some space travelers had been exiled on a harsh desert planet for years, and survived only due to the strong leadership of one man who inspired them to eke out an existence in very tough conditions. Well guess what? Eventually they were rescued...except that he didn't want it! The rescue threatened his status and standing, so he vigorously tried to convince all his fellow exiles that Earth was really a horrible place, and they would all be much better remaining on the desert planet.

Eventually he was abandoned and left alone, free to stew in his own bitterness.

 

[120% Torque]

Am I correct to understand that Air France bought KLM? Delta has been "friendly" with AF for some time and recently (end of last year) signed agreements to bring things closer. I know KLM had alot of special code share with NWA. I wonder if AF can open things up further with code share to the places NWA flys in Europe/netherlands? I would imaging http://www.delta.com/about_delta/corporate_information/corporate_biographies/hauenstein/ Deltas genius route planner (stolen from CAL) has jumped back to go it alone mode and if past performance predicts future action Delta should see more destination/announcements once the merger is officially pronounced DOA.

 

[120% Torque]

We (DAL) DID find the middle ground--it was our opening position. We wanted to avoid the stupidity that has so long characterized pilot groups and negotiations.

But the NWA guys couldn't get past their dysfunctional model of "we open with a position just shy of so ridiculous the other side will walk out of the room; then we eventually turn it over to an arbitrator who will make the hard decisions we SHOULD HAVE."

Deep down I think the NWA guys like it--they truly believe that reneging on their duty to reach an accord and ALWAYS turning over the tough agreements to an arbitrator is how things ought to be and in fact are everywhere.

How else can you explain a record of 26 sets of negotiations leading to 26 arbitrations?

Again, too bad. The NWA guys cost themselves a lot, both near term and long-term, for the sake of clinging to a worn-out playbook that most people tossed in the dumpster years ago.

Reminds me of an old "Twilight Zone" episode. Some space travelers had been exiled on a harsh desert planet for years, and survived only due to the strong leadership of one man who inspired them to eke out an existence in very tough conditions. Well guess what? Eventually they were rescued...except that he didn't want it! The rescue threatened his status and standing, so he vigorously tried to convince all his fellow exiles that Earth was really a horrible place, and they would all be much better remaining on the desert planet.

Eventually he was abandoned and left alone, free to stew in his own bitterness.

I say good riddance and lets move on. If Anderson cant get the merger done that he was brought in to do it will be back to what was being looked at before the merger talk. Let the two airlines get back to where they were headed before this merger talk:

Delta

Speaking on CNBC on Wednesday, Delta Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian said the airline would look into fleet replacement. The carrier is interested in the Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - news) 787 and other narrow body planes.

Delta May Be a Big Boeing 787 Buyer


By Paulo Prada
Word Count: 699 | Companies Featured in This Article: Delta Air Lines , Boeing, Southwest Airlines, European Aeronautic Defence & Space, All Nippon Airways, Continental Airlines
Delta Air Lines Inc., in a sign of its resurgent financial strength and willingness to spend heavily as it expands outside the U.S., is likely to order as many as 125 of Boeing Co.'s new 787 jetliners by the end of this year, its operating chief said.
The order, still being negotiated as Delta mulls potential seat configurations for the planes and how much they could cost to operate and maintain, would be valued at an estimated $20 billion at list prices, although such orders normally carry steep discounts. The 125 would likely include options to buy planes as well ...

ILFC has alot of these available for the near term until regular orders can be had so no Delta would not have to wait forever to get them.



if merger talks with NWA do fail, Bastian says Delta will be just fine, adding it has "a great standalone plan." And when asked if Delta had a "Plan B" ready if NWA talks collapsed, he responded by saying: "It's not a Plan B, it's a Plan A — that's our standalone option."

Posted at 05:11 PM/ET, Feb 29, 2008 in Airport news and route changes, Delta, Northwest | Permalink | Comments7​

 

[clippyrip]

We (DAL) DID find the middle ground--it was our opening position. We wanted to avoid the stupidity that has so long characterized pilot groups and negotiations.

But the NWA guys couldn't get past their dysfunctional model of "we open with a position just shy of so ridiculous the other side will walk out of the room; then we eventually turn it over to an arbitrator who will make the hard decisions we SHOULD HAVE."

You sir, are an ass.

 

[120% Torque]

And let Northwest get back to theirs:

Northwest cancellations: Will NWA be grounded?

Posted Jul 24th 2007 6:10PM by Kevin Shult
Filed under: Bad news, Consumer experience, Competitive strategy, AMR Corp (AMR), UAL Corp (UAUA), Delta Air Lines (DAL), Stocks to Sell
Since it came out of bankruptcy two months ago, Northwest Airlines (NYSE: NWA) has canceled a significant amount of flights because of a pilot shortage. Over 147 Northwest flights were canceled over the past weekend and more than 60 were canceled on Monday. By mid-day today, 30 more were grounded.

While these recent cancellations don't compare to the 1,000 flights that were cut in June, Northwest failed to meet the industry's target of 98.0% completed flights. The numbers are also worse than Northwest's rivals' performances. USA Today reported that Northwest's 76 cancellations Sunday totaled 5.6% of the day's flights. In comparison, American Airlines (NYSE: AMR) cut six flights, United Airlines (NASDAQ: UAUA) canceled 33 and Delta (NYSE: DAL) cut four. All provide more daily flights than Northwest.

 

[FDJ2]

I cant fault the Northwest guys for trying to get a good position in all this.

That was the critical flaw in their strategy, the desire to get the best deal for their guys and not a fair deal for all. It never entered their consciousness that this wasn't about posturing and then arbitrating the hard choices. They sent a Jurasic merger team with a long history of never achieving a negotiated result and then wondered why this time the result wasn't different.

 

[FDJ2]

Me thinks this is far from over. 1st inning, and it's 0/0......

It's not that type of game.

 

[Tref]

And let Northwest get back to theirs:

Northwest cancellations: Will NWA be grounded?

Posted Jul 24th 2007 6:10PM by Kevin Shult
Filed under: Bad news, Consumer experience, Competitive strategy, AMR Corp (AMR), UAL Corp (UAUA), Delta Air Lines (DAL), Stocks to Sell
Since it came out of bankruptcy two months ago, Northwest Airlines (NYSE: NWA) has canceled a significant amount of flights because of a pilot shortage. Over 147 Northwest flights were canceled over the past weekend and more than 60 were canceled on Monday. By mid-day today, 30 more were grounded.

While these recent cancellations don't compare to the 1,000 flights that were cut in June, Northwest failed to meet the industry's target of 98.0% completed flights. The numbers are also worse than Northwest's rivals' performances. USA Today reported that Northwest's 76 cancellations Sunday totaled 5.6% of the day's flights. In comparison, American Airlines (NYSE: AMR) cut six flights, United Airlines (NASDAQ: UAUA) canceled 33 and Delta (NYSE: DAL) cut four. All provide more daily flights than Northwest.

Ummm, look at the date. Not exactly current info.

 

[Tref]

That was the critical flaw in their strategy, the desire to get the best deal for their guys and not a fair deal for all. It never entered their consciousness that this wasn't about posturing and then arbitrating the hard choices. They sent a Jurasic merger team with a long history of never achieving a negotiated result and then wondered why this time the result wasn't different.

Are you guys all on the negotiating committees or something? How the F do you all know so much about what's been going on???

We know the news leaks are BS. We know the rumors are best guesses. So how in the hell are you all so confident that what you think is true?

It's crazy that so many supposedly intelligent people are arguing about something that they have virtually no knowledge of.

All that I've gleaned from these threads is that some of the Delta pilots think that the world revolves around them and that they are better than everyone else in the universe.

So here's my question... If someone merges with Delta will they become, "better than everyone else" too?

 

[EdTeachLives!]

You sir, are an ass.

Because......for what reason would that be? For stating the postion that NWA's "cowboy(s)" pitched at the negotiations? NWA's group of "leaders" makes the Manson family look like the Cleavers. It appears that NWA has a significantly disfunctional collection of pilots, or subsection of pilots, that border on irrational in their actions and statements.

For as much as this merger would have gained the two companies, maybe it is a positive in the long run that this has failed or is failing now. Who wants to go to work in an environment filled with left over anger and hate after 20 years of fences only to hear the words "__checklist" during a four day trip and thats it?


Ed

 

[FDJ2]

All that I've gleaned from these threads is that some of the Delta pilots think that the world revolves around them and that they are better than everyone else in the universe.

So here's my question... If someone merges with Delta will they become, "better than everyone else" too?

It appears you have issues.

 

[B737 Guy]

Atlanta is really nice, lucky you. HAHA:laugh:

You sir, are an ass!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

AF bought KLM a couple of years ago. They most recently just bought Alitalia.

That's one of the reasons for this merger, AF's CEO said it would be much better for AF if they merged.

cliff
YIP

PS-I'll be MORE surprised if the merger isn't done. I'll be less surprised if it is done without the pilots and they'll end up in arbitration. I think they will reach an agreement and then they'll merge.

 

[Muskycat]

Who gives a rats ass how many isles are in the back of the thing...pay rates is what it is all about as well as it is a sinlge catagorey at DAL.

Perhaps for you I could just put it this way for you - "DAL has three times the number of big shinny jets when compared to NWAs big shinney ones"

You're close Jester but it's actually 4 times.

NWA has 60 wide bodies times 3 =
180.

We have 245 aircraft last count that pay wide body rates. That would be 4 times the aircraft at wide body rates.
Not to mention the 777-LR's that are coming on board this year and next, along with the 757 ER's we gained.
In the mean time NWA is building compass.

KILL IT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[EdTeachLives!]

You're close Jester but it's actually 4 times.

NWA has 60 wide bodies times 3 =
180.

We have 245 aircraft last count that pay wide body rates. That would be 4 times the aircraft at wide body rates.
Not to mention the 777-LR's that are coming on board this year and next, along with the 757 ER's we gained.
In the mean time NWA is building compass.

KILL IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Do not worry. The word out of the most recently held LEC meeting has this deal as officially coded and pronouced dead. It was approached with the reasonable man theory. It did not succeed.

Part of the blame can be laid at the feet of the DALPA for having bad or no intel on the group they were dealing with. Perhaps their approach in negotiating with them was thus destined for failure.

The other portion of blame can be attributed to the NWALPA for being largely unprepared for the talks and then tossing out an outrageous opener to position themselves for an aribitration. I guess if that is all you know how to do after 20 years...then do it. Again, back to DALPA's intel failure.

Ed

 

[FDJ2]

Part of the blame can be laid at the feet of the DALPA for having bad or no intel on the group they were dealing with.
Ed

DALPA created the opportunity and created the the prerequisite that for any merger to succeed pilots must play a role from the inception and our issues must be dealt with up front.

It takes a different approach, unfortunately not everyone involved in the process got it. NWALPA brought a one trick poney to the SLI negotiations and then scratched their heads and wondered why the results weren't different this time.

DALPA opened with a fair integration methodolgy for all, with the intention of avoiding the quibbling and posturing that predictably leads to arbitration. The one trick pony committee did what they have consistently done for 2 decades. They postured for the best deal imagineable. The end result was predictable but regrettable. At least we tried.