FOCUS: Mid level and junior NWA are toast. DAL will hold all WB upgrades in 5 years.

[Draginass]

Another real question is when the recession hits full force this fall, whose going to take the brunt of the furloughs and which captains are going to get pushed back to FO?

This merger is a bad deal for both pilot groups, but will make a few execs very very very rich, despite the lies that they say it won't.

 

[fam62c]

An old saying but a good one

Well, it's Friday and where's the announcement?? I think this deal is dead.........thank god.

As the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. This will be key to making the deal work so nobody's future will be any worse off than it would have been if the merger hadn't happened. There's no way that everybody will be happy with any integration so the pilots will need to look at the whole deal as a package. In the end it's probably better if this deal doesn't happen but the equity holders in DAL and NWA will push it through for better or worse.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

You're joking, right??


Abe

Bad grammar on my part. Should have read something like "if the TWA/AA list merge was done on a straight DOH basis".

obviously it wasn't done that way.

 

[abe44]

Bad grammar on my part. Should have read something like "if the TWA/AA list merge was done on a straight DOH basis".

obviously it wasn't done that way.

My bad...I read your post again and realize now what you are saying.

Abe

 

[michael707767]

How many pilots has delta hired post 9-11?

how is that relevant to merging lists?

 

[~~~^~~~]

As the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. This will be key to making the deal work so nobody's future will be any worse off than it would have been if the merger hadn't happened.

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

 

[the turtle]

deleted

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

Something similar to this is how regional/mainline lists should be integrated also....You have to be able to protect current career realities.....rather than use arbitrary "potential career expectations"......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe - Things that make you go "hmmmm" and scratch your chin.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe - Things that make you go "hmmmm" and scratch your chin.

.....there was actually some discussion of this back in 2002....but it was squashed......

I've always advocated a form of "double staple"....rather than pure staple.....I will fight a pure staple even if means keeping up the whipsaw.....A double staple protects me and others....

 

[Schwanker]

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

NWA has been through this we call it red/green/blue.

Schwanker

 

[jetflier]

NWA/Republic 1986 merger created the Roberts Award, essentially 20 year fences that essentially kept the (Republic) pilots off the NWA equipment for 20 years. It ended on Jan 01,2006.

 

[737 Pylt]

Something similar to this is how regional/mainline lists should be integrated also....You have to be able to protect current career realities.....rather than use arbitrary "potential career expectations"......

No it shouldn't! Because you don't want to negotiate it, you want to sue! Your career realities when you got hired at asa was to be an rj captain! That's all you flew at asa!
Grab a clue!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

No it shouldn't! Because you don't want to negotiate it, you want to sue! Your career realities when you got hired at asa was to be an rj captain! That's all you flew at asa!
Grab a clue!

737

Actually when I got hired at ASA, we didn't have any jets.....Then we had 88-100 seat jets....Then we went to RJs.....maybe you need to grab that clue....

 

[~~~^~~~]

737Pylt:

ASA had their own routes, ticket stock, marketing, etc.... Back when Delta acquired the airline, they had 105 seat BAE's on the property and distant plans for a DC-9 / 737 type operation.

The fact that ValuJet is considered an airline and ASA was not was arbitrary.

I'd like the DAL/NWA merger much better if the DC-9 flying was not being transferred off the seniority list.

All Delta flying should be performed by Delta pilots.