FOCUS: Mid level and junior NWA are toast. DAL will hold all WB upgrades in 5 years.

[jetflier]

Yup, thats what will happen with a percentage merge of the NWA/DAL seniority list.

There is not enough pay and bennies to get the NWA pilots on board with this deal.

NWA doesn't need DAL to survive, I hope the deal tanks!

 

[michael707767]

Yup, thats what will happen with a percentage merge of the NWA/DAL seniority list.

There is not enough pay and bennies to get the NWA pilots on board with this deal.

NWA doesn't need DAL to survive, I hope the deal tanks!

reverse it. A DOH merger would mean all the WB upgrades for a long, long time will go to NWA pilots. How's that fair?

 

[CALRepublic]

Here we go.

let the diagreements between the DL and NW guys begin. I hope its a little more civilized than the US/AW guys.

 

[SellingDirt]

Merger won't happen for this very reason....In fact, it will cool the entire industries mania to merge.

 

[Diesel-9]

And probably easier and shorter than the UAL/CAL deal would be. Good Luck if that happens. That could be an event to watch .

 

[AA717driver]

I STILL can't figure out why we don't have a National Seniority List... TC

 

[dbrownie]

Yup, thats what will happen with a percentage merge of the NWA/DAL seniority list.

Mid level and junior NWA are toast?

Mid level and junior have been "toasted" by senior

NWA for years.

We are used to it.

I welcome a clean slate. A couple of more years

of pain.... so what.

Dave B

 

[abe44]

Merger won't happen for this very reason....In fact, it will cool the entire industries mania to merge.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but if the money folks want this merger to happen, it'll happen.

It looks like the pilots have some sort of veto power, but don't kid yourself. The BOD's and creditors want this merger to go smoothly and thery're willing to pay for our help (and delay the announcement). But if we can't come to an agreement, this thing goes through the old fashioned way.

Which means the senority lists will get merged the old fashioned way(arbitrator). It won't be DOH, by the way. But it probably won't be straight relative senority either.

And as far as the money and raises go...we'll get to negotiate those the old fashioned way. Because without an agreement now, that money disappears.


Abe

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Similar thing was figured out with the AA/TWA list merge with something like DOH.

Although it wouldn't have been for many years, but eventually down the road, most of the 777 Captain slots would be former TWA guys due to the amount of mid/early twentysomethings hired when TWA was scraping to survive.

There were other issues too, like the short haul STL flying that disappeared courtesy of AA's "skilled" management. DL/NWA will face a similar problem with MEM,CVG or DTW on the chopping block despite what the spin machine says.

 

[abe44]

Similar thing was figured out with the AA/TWA list merge with something like DOH.

You're joking, right??


Abe

 

[Beetle007]

I'm surprised airlines rarely use/agree to last-offer arbitration.

In last-offer arbitration, each party makes a proposal to the arbitrator, and the arbitrator picks the most reaonable proposal.

Because each party attempts to make a reasonable proposal there is good chance of an agreement before it is even sent to the arbitrator for the final decision.

 

[jke406]

That would only work with two parties negotiating rationally and reasonably. Not going to happen with airline pilots.

 

[Beetle007]

How many pilots has delta hired post 9-11?

 

[Noserider76]

Yup, thats what will happen with a percentage merge of the NWA/DAL seniority list.

There is not enough pay and bennies to get the NWA pilots on board with this deal.

NWA doesn't need DAL to survive, I hope the deal tanks!

I'm with you that I hope the deal tanks as well but I think the decision has been made and they'll do it without our cooperation if they have to.

I understand your concerns about losing what you see as your future upgrades. Believe me, no one here is jumping up and down saying "I can't wait to jump into the 747 or A330." I don't want your upgrade. We just want to keep what we see as the opportunity in the much larger number of high paying positions we bring to the table and we want downside protection in the event of total DC-9 failure.

Hopefully they can come up with a deal that protects your people on your equipment and ours on our equipment.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Well, it's Friday and where's the announcement?? I think this deal is dead.........thank god.

 

[Draginass]

Another real question is when the recession hits full force this fall, whose going to take the brunt of the furloughs and which captains are going to get pushed back to FO?

This merger is a bad deal for both pilot groups, but will make a few execs very very very rich, despite the lies that they say it won't.

 

[fam62c]

An old saying but a good one

Well, it's Friday and where's the announcement?? I think this deal is dead.........thank god.

As the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. This will be key to making the deal work so nobody's future will be any worse off than it would have been if the merger hadn't happened. There's no way that everybody will be happy with any integration so the pilots will need to look at the whole deal as a package. In the end it's probably better if this deal doesn't happen but the equity holders in DAL and NWA will push it through for better or worse.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

You're joking, right??


Abe

Bad grammar on my part. Should have read something like "if the TWA/AA list merge was done on a straight DOH basis".

obviously it wasn't done that way.

 

[abe44]

Bad grammar on my part. Should have read something like "if the TWA/AA list merge was done on a straight DOH basis".

obviously it wasn't done that way.

My bad...I read your post again and realize now what you are saying.

Abe

 

[michael707767]

How many pilots has delta hired post 9-11?

how is that relevant to merging lists?

 

[~~~^~~~]

As the old saying goes, good fences make good neighbors. This will be key to making the deal work so nobody's future will be any worse off than it would have been if the merger hadn't happened.

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

 

[the turtle]

deleted

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

Something similar to this is how regional/mainline lists should be integrated also....You have to be able to protect current career realities.....rather than use arbitrary "potential career expectations"......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Joe - Things that make you go "hmmmm" and scratch your chin.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe - Things that make you go "hmmmm" and scratch your chin.

.....there was actually some discussion of this back in 2002....but it was squashed......

I've always advocated a form of "double staple"....rather than pure staple.....I will fight a pure staple even if means keeping up the whipsaw.....A double staple protects me and others....

 

[Schwanker]

How about dual concurrent seniority?

Everyone keeps their DAL number and their NWA number. Everone also gets a New-DAL number which can be used for aircraft ordered (not current orders as of date of merger) for the new Company.

This protects those already holding seats, protects relative position an allows the company to merge slowly as new aircraft enter the fleet.

Somebody sent me this -

Career Protection & Progression

• “Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet. The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers. The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.) When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence. “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
• In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots. 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

NWA has been through this we call it red/green/blue.

Schwanker

 

[jetflier]

NWA/Republic 1986 merger created the Roberts Award, essentially 20 year fences that essentially kept the (Republic) pilots off the NWA equipment for 20 years. It ended on Jan 01,2006.

 

[737 Pylt]

Something similar to this is how regional/mainline lists should be integrated also....You have to be able to protect current career realities.....rather than use arbitrary "potential career expectations"......

No it shouldn't! Because you don't want to negotiate it, you want to sue! Your career realities when you got hired at asa was to be an rj captain! That's all you flew at asa!
Grab a clue!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

No it shouldn't! Because you don't want to negotiate it, you want to sue! Your career realities when you got hired at asa was to be an rj captain! That's all you flew at asa!
Grab a clue!

737

Actually when I got hired at ASA, we didn't have any jets.....Then we had 88-100 seat jets....Then we went to RJs.....maybe you need to grab that clue....

 

[~~~^~~~]

737Pylt:

ASA had their own routes, ticket stock, marketing, etc.... Back when Delta acquired the airline, they had 105 seat BAE's on the property and distant plans for a DC-9 / 737 type operation.

The fact that ValuJet is considered an airline and ASA was not was arbitrary.

I'd like the DAL/NWA merger much better if the DC-9 flying was not being transferred off the seniority list.

All Delta flying should be performed by Delta pilots.