Skywest, Expressjet and SLC flying

[Gr82Aviate]

I've made it clear repeatedly that I have no grounds for being anti-ALPA or pro-ALPA (or any other union, for that matter) as it is not my fight. That is entirely the decision of the pilot group and I stay out of it...just as I would expect SKYW pilots to stay out of the business of the dispatch group if they were to consider unionizing. We don't know your personal daily struggles, and you guys sure as hell don't know ours (as evidenced by the comments made toward our employee group on this board).

I have no suggestion for how to "go after it"...you've gotta figure that out for yourself.

Upon re-reading my posts...can you explain to me how you took anything I wrote as being "anti-ALPA/Union"? Or, do you just automatically default to that when someone who doesn't fly the line makes logical statements?

Drinking while posting is fun...

I guess I was using "evidence from comments made by many of the other members of your employee group on this board"(XPOO, etc.)!!



I sometimes forget that not all of you came on our board spouting off anti-pilot/union/ALPA BS...

 

[Nevets]

Ya know...that is likely the weakest anti-SkyWest argument out there.

Last I checked, SkyWest was a business, not a charity. Now, I know the majority of airlines forgot how to make a profit many moons ago, but don't let that make you think they are all out to fail. That money in the bank will put SKYW in a better position to fight through harder economic times, like the ones likely ahead...and already puts them at an financing advantage when buying airframes, thus saving the company large sums of money.

If the money was going directly to Uncle Jerry and Chippy's pockets, then yeah, there would be plenty of room to talk...and, don't get me wrong, we'd all like a payraise. But this statement is exactly what is wrong with the the way the majority of pilots think. It's always about how they deserve more, more, more...even if it may hurt the company and cause me (and thousands more) to lose my job later.

I mean, Nevets, take a look at the situation at your carrier, XJet. You guys had a very successful company, had some great union leadership who pulled the pilots together and negotiated a great contract with increases in pay and QOL...and what happened? Not to say the pilot contract was the only thing, but it was definitely a factor in the reduction of CoEx flying. (And please, lets not turn this into a union argument...I'm staying far outta that.)

So, I respectfully ask, why is there something wrong with flying for the industry average, keeping your contracts, and making (and saving) money quarter after quarter?...so long as that money is going in the bank and not the execs' bonuses, of course.

I think the majority of the people who are genuinely happy here kinda like that security blanket of a bunch of money in the bank...and not worrying too much about where your company is going in this volatile business and if you will be employed next week...my friend, that is a big part of QOL.

Why is it a weak argument? If being thee most successful regional for the past 35 years with about three quarters of a billion dollars in the bank and making $160 million last year is not enough to ask for at least parity with the likes of Horizon or XJT, then nothing will ever be!

Skywest is a business. A very successful business. It is thee model of what a regional airline should be in regards to success. ALL the employees should be the best paid employees in your sector. If you call you compensation a charity, then I guess there is nothing I can say because, personally, I feel you guys are worth more than industry average.

Skywest is in such a good position to "fight through harder economic times, like the ones likely ahead...and already puts them at an financing advantage when buying airframes" that they invest in entities outside the country and are shopping for airlines to buy out. I think they can afford to pay their pilots just a little bit more.

By the way, how much is JA's and Chippy's total compensation package and his golden parachute? There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking management to share some of the success that the pilots have helped it gain. No one said anything about hurting the company. Management knows what to put on the table (and obviously keep this to themselves). Its up to the pilots to capture as much of that as possible. Your managment especially is too smart to "give" any of their employees too much. The problem is that without having a union recognized by the NMB, the pilots are unable to even get to the table because they are not able to force management in to real good faith bargaining.

By the way, CAL was determined to give our flying to someone else as soon as contractually possible following the IPO in 2002, which they did. It had nothing to do with our contract. They simply did not want to have a Comair/DAL scenerio happen to them.

And you are right. We do have a very successful company, had some great union leadership who pulled the pilots together and negotiated a great contract with increases in pay and QOL. And the pilots at Skywest could have that as well as work for thee most successful regional.

So, there is nothing wrong with flying for the industry average. But when you work for thee greatest regional, you are selling yourself and the rest of your peers very very short. With the leadership at Skywest and their ability to build and maintain thee most successful regional you can have that as well as keeping your contracts, and making (and saving) money quarter after quarter.

I think many people are oblivious as to how much more successful Skywest is to the next most successful regional out there. Sure, they may be happy but I guess ignorance is bliss. You wouldn't have to worry about where Skywest is going to be even if they paid their pilots industry leading wages. That's how good Skywest is. Some pilots just don't realize that...yet.

 

[Nevets]

I didn't blame pilots for anything. (I will save my thoughts on your referring to my comments as "low"...as there was nothing "low" about them.)

I did, however, point out a general flaw in the "Me, Me, Me!" thinking of the average pilot. You can't deny it exists...you all accuse one another of it everyday on this message board.

I guess we all have that flaw. Some of us are better at not acting impulsively on that flaw. You also displayed this flaw as you mentioned maybe losing your job because of someone else's increased compensation. Although I do give you credit for mentioning "thousands more."

And, it is no doubt well deserved. Most SkyWest pilots work their tails off, and I understand they always have. Thus I said, "we'd all like a payraise" in a previous post. But you can't expect the company to just hand it over...you gotta go after it.

No, you can't expect them to hand it over. And why should they? They don't have to. That is precisely why the pilots need a union that is recognized by the NMB. Because only the RLA is going to force the company into real good faith bargaining. This way, its a more fair agreement between the company and the pilots.

 

[Nevets]

After ALPA, only year 18 ($00.26) is less ASA's 700 rate, all other years are higher. 200 rates are all higher.

Did you read my post in this very thread about effective dues rate?

Anyways, dues don't only pay for negotiations. There is a lot more you get out of that that Skywest pilots could not pay for themselves with their wages.

 

[Nevets]

I've made it clear repeatedly that I have no grounds for being anti-ALPA or pro-ALPA (or any other union, for that matter) as it is not my fight. That is entirely the decision of the pilot group and I stay out of it...just as I would expect SKYW pilots to stay out of the business of the dispatch group if they were to consider unionizing. We don't know your personal daily struggles, and you guys sure as hell don't know ours (as evidenced by the comments made toward our employee group on this board).

I have no suggestion for how to "go after it"...you've gotta figure that out for yourself.

Upon re-reading my posts...can you explain to me how you took anything I wrote as being "anti-ALPA/Union"? Or, do you just automatically default to that when someone who doesn't fly the line makes logical statements?

Drinking while posting is fun...

Well, when you make write posts that say, "take a look at the situation at your carrier, XJet. You guys had a very successful company, had some great union leadership who pulled the pilots together and negotiated a great contract with increases in pay and QOL...and what happened? Not to say the pilot contract was the only thing, but it was definitely a factor in the reduction of CoEx flying. (And please, lets not turn this into a union argument...I'm staying far outta that.)" what are people to think. You even had to make a point to not make it into an anti-union thing. Why did you have to say that?

The fact of the matter is that you responded to a post I made regarding pilot pay at Skywest. You should know that that in of itself has to do with the union issue. How else do pilots get just a little bit more of that $750 million in the bank? Obviously not with SAPA!

The pilots do have to figure it out for themselves. But what would you say if they figure its best to have a union that asks to be the industry leader in pay and QOL? It doesn't seem like you would support that from your previous statements because it might jeopardize your job.

You may feel like you have no grounds on the union thing but you make it pretty clear where you stand on it regardless. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you feeling that way, mind you. Just don't be in denial about it. You all have a stake in each others employee groups. Just as us pilots on the outside have a stake in your pilot group.

 

[Nevets]

Ya know, I don't have a problem with Uncle Jerry pulling in 1.5 mil. I mean, he did (with alot of luck) make the company what it is today. That's not ridiculous considering 30+ years with the company and I also don't seem him handing himself huge "Glenn Tiltion-style" bonuses, either.

As far as being an acquisition target, no doubt that blanket can be used to smother you, but I don't see SKYW having a good chunk of that money in the bank by the time merger-mania is over.

If you have no problem JA pulling 1.5 mil, then why do you have a problem with pilots making more as well. Don't get me wrong. I think he should get industry leading CEO pay for the job he has done. I don't know, maybe he does.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Well, then...now that the alcohol has made it's way through my system...

Well, when you make write posts that say, "take a look at the situation at your carrier, XJet. You guys had a very successful company, had some great union leadership who pulled the pilots together and negotiated a great contract with increases in pay and QOL...and what happened? Not to say the pilot contract was the only thing, but it was definitely a factor in the reduction of CoEx flying. (And please, lets not turn this into a union argument...I'm staying far outta that.)" what are people to think. You even had to make a point to not make it into an anti-union thing. Why did you have to say that?

The fact of the matter is that you responded to a post I made regarding pilot pay at Skywest. You should know that that in of itself has to do with the union issue. How else do pilots get just a little bit more of that $750 million in the bank? Obviously not with SAPA!

The pilots do have to figure it out for themselves. But what would you say if they figure its best to have a union that asks to be the industry leader in pay and QOL? It doesn't seem like you would support that from your previous statements because it might jeopardize your job.

You may feel like you have no grounds on the union thing but you make it pretty clear where you stand on it regardless. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you feeling that way, mind you. Just don't be in denial about it. You all have a stake in each others employee groups. Just as us pilots on the outside have a stake in your pilot group.

Let me clarify that I was by no means ripping the XJet pilot group. If anything, I was praising the fact that they banded together behind their local leadership and put together a stellar contract...if only all pilot unions in pay negotiations were as effective as XJet ALPA.

I felt the need to make the comment on "not turning this into a union thing" because everything...EVERYTHING...eventually turns into a union thing here (i.e., this thread)...and I wanted to point out that it wasn't a jab at the union.

I make no bones that I'm not exactly a pro-union guy. I believe the old-school mentality of some of the unions carry at least some of the fault, along with mis-management and the U.S. Government, for the situation this industry is in today. I do, however, respect the right of any and all workgroups to organize as they see fit and believe that it is the business of each workgroup to do as such. Who knows, maybe I'll change my tune one day under different circumstances.

As far as the pilot group having to figure it out for themselves...that's exactly what I meant...no more, no less.

If you have no problem JA pulling 1.5 mil, then why do you have a problem with pilots making more as well. Don't get me wrong. I think he should get industry leading CEO pay for the job he has done. I don't know, maybe he does.

I never once said that I have any kind of problem with pilots making more. Why is it that someone makes an economics based argument around here and suddenly you're against pilot compensation?

I most definitely do not have a problem with pilots making more. Believe me, I know you should all be paid better. FlightOps as a whole should all be paid better. But in a contract-flying environment...you can't expect the world...like so many on here expect.

Back to the original topic/reply.

Listen, I'm not anti-pilot...nor am I pro-management. I am, however, a realist. I am "pro-all of us keeping a job that doesn't pay horribly". Because, as long as you're at least somewhat happy with your QOL, that is sadly almost the best you can expect from this business. And, while I would like a little more money, too...I like having that money sitting in the bank just in case the crap hits the fan.

In an unrelated story...I love Firefox. My computer crashed after typing out my reply...and it was all still here after the restart.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Well, then...now that the alcohol has made it's way through my system...

Let me clarify that I was by no means ripping the XJet pilot group. If anything, I was praising the fact that they banded together behind their local leadership and put together a stellar contract...if only all pilot unions in pay negotiations were as effective as XJet ALPA.

I felt the need to make the comment on "not turning this into a union thing" because everything...EVERYTHING...eventually turns into a union thing here (i.e., this thread)...and I wanted to point out that it wasn't a jab at the union.

I make no bones that I'm not exactly a pro-union guy. I believe the old-school mentality of some of the unions carry at least some of the fault, along with mis-management and the U.S. Government, for the situation this industry is in today. I do, however, respect the right of any and all workgroups to organize as they see fit and believe that it is the business of each workgroup to do as such. Who knows, maybe I'll change my tune one day under different circumstances.

As far as the pilot group having to figure it out for themselves...that's exactly what I meant...no more, no less.


I never once said that I have any kind of problem with pilots making more. Why is it that someone makes an economics based argument around here and suddenly you're against pilot compensation?

I most definitely do not have a problem with pilots making more. Believe me, I know you should all be paid better. FlightOps as a whole should all be paid better. But in a contract-flying environment...you can't expect the world...like so many on here expect.

Back to the original topic/reply.

Listen, I'm not anti-pilot...nor am I pro-management. I am, however, a realist. I am "pro-all of us keeping a job that doesn't pay horribly". Because, as long as you're at least somewhat happy with your QOL, that is sadly almost the best you can expect from this business. And, while I would like a little more money, too...I like having that money sitting in the bank just in case the crap hits the fan.

In an unrelated story...I love Firefox. My computer crashed after typing out my reply...and it was all still here after the restart.

I don't "expect the world", but it might be nice to at least keep up with inflation, when you work for a company that is at the top of the industry in earnings year after year!

 

[SkyNation]

the Union drive ended and failed miserably. In other news you may not be current on, the Cold War is over, we landed on the moon, and Al Gore invented this 'internet' thingy that we're using.

PS-We make as much or more than XJet and Horizon guys, just ask them (yourself). Everyone knows that, and if they don't they they haven't grasped the truth that there is more to pay and how much we all make than what is posted on airlinepilotcentral.com.

 

[Nevets]

Well, then...now that the alcohol has made it's way through my system...

Let me clarify that I was by no means ripping the XJet pilot group. If anything, I was praising the fact that they banded together behind their local leadership and put together a stellar contract...if only all pilot unions in pay negotiations were as effective as XJet ALPA.

You insinuated that the a "great contract with increases in pay and QOL" was a factor in CAL's decision to give 25% of its flying to someone else when in fact it wasn't. And at the same time imply that if Skywest pilots had that same "great contract with increases in pay and QOL" that it would cause you to lose your job. As a side note, no one at XJT has lost their job due to the "great contract with increases in pay and QOL."

I felt the need to make the comment on "not turning this into a union thing" because everything...EVERYTHING...eventually turns into a union thing here (i.e., this thread)...and I wanted to point out that it wasn't a jab at the union.

Anytime you talk about Skywest pilot pay, it has indirectly something to do with the union thing as they are not able to get real good faith bargaining without being recognized by the NMB. Without that, they will never be able to use the RLA to leverage to get just a little bit more of that $750 BILLION in the bank.

I make no bones that I'm not exactly a pro-union guy. I believe the old-school mentality of some of the unions carry at least some of the fault, along with mis-management and the U.S. Government, for the situation this industry is in today. I do, however, respect the right of any and all workgroups to organize as they see fit and believe that it is the business of each workgroup to do as such. Who knows, maybe I'll change my tune one day under different circumstances.

Management runs the airline. They come to an agreement with the union of work rules and compensation. If they agree to pay the pilots more, they need to abide by their agreement or get an amendment. Good management, which seems as though Skywest does have, will never agree to something that will put them at a competitive disadvantage.

I never once said that I have any kind of problem with pilots making more. Why is it that someone makes an economics based argument around here and suddenly you're against pilot compensation?

I most definitely do not have a problem with pilots making more. Believe me, I know you should all be paid better. FlightOps as a whole should all be paid better. But in a contract-flying environment...you can't expect the world...like so many on here expect.

Then what did you mean when you said, "It's always about how they deserve more, more, more...even if it may hurt the company and cause me (and thousands more) to lose my job later." It doesn't sound like to me that you are for the pilots getting more.

Look, even the best paid regional pilots today don't make much. Its not like if Skywest was thee best paid regional airline, its going to be that much more. I don't think people "expect the world" but they expect that pilots that work for thee best regional gets paid at least thee best.

Back to the original topic/reply.

Listen, I'm not anti-pilot...nor am I pro-management. I am, however, a realist. I am "pro-all of us keeping a job that doesn't pay horribly". Because, as long as you're at least somewhat happy with your QOL, that is sadly almost the best you can expect from this business. And, while I would like a little more money, too...I like having that money sitting in the bank just in case the crap hits the fan.

Well from what you have written I would guess that you are not anti pilot unless they get more, more, more.

Like I said, its not something that will brake the bank. There is no reason for settling with mediocrity in pay and QOL when your own management doesn't either.