Rolling Rest - Explain Please.

[jackpilot]

Hey you Flexjet folks.

Please detail some "rolling rest" scenarios. I've seen many references to this subject, but never an explanation.

Thanks.

 

[Hobbes]

I am NOT a Flexjet guy, but the term refers to the idea that when you duty off today, they give you a projected duty start time for tomorrow...let's say it's noon. You are supposed to be ready to do a 14 hour day starting at noon....

You got off today at 4pm, so you are going to have PLENTY of rest time....(20 hours)....now in the morning someone else calls off sick, or a plane breaks or whatever, and they panic and need you. They call you at 6 am, because you have already been off for 14 hours, so you have your 10 hours rest right? But you were planning on dutying on at noon, so you might have stayed up late the night before...so you can sleep late, and be more rested at the end of the originally planned day....

If you answer your phone, out of obligation or stupidity - you pick - you are screwed...they are going to want you to fly...and you are going to be intimidated to go because you are talking to them...except you only just went to bed at 2 am, and now you are operating on very little sleep and are much more dangerous throughout your day if you go.

The way these fracs operate, this becomes the norm and the pilots just get wasted from day after day of this BS. There is no predictability to anything so how are you supposed to be rested.

IBT1108 solved that problem at Flops....they don't answer their phones anymore at all...unless they are mgmt suckups trying to earn favors.

Did that answer the question?

 

[warlord19]

Yep, IBT 1108 solved that problem allright. Now you can see crews showing up at 0700 and sitting all day at an FBO with no plane. An alternative to the above scenario is where the crew has a beer, calls it a day, and if they do get an early call-out, they are ready. If no calls, they are in their room resting. Can it be abused..sure. Depends on management. Careful what you chose.

 

[Hobbes]

Yep, IBT 1108 solved that problem allright. Now you can see crews showing up at 0700 and sitting all day at an FBO with no plane. An alternative to the above scenario is where the crew has a beer, calls it a day, and if they do get an early call-out, they are ready. If no calls, they are in their room resting. Can it be abused..sure. Depends on management. Careful what you chose.

Not to pick on you here, but what's the priority? Having a beer or being properly rested for duty?

Management dutying on crews at 0 dark thirty is their choice. If they want to burn my duty day sitting around so be it. The sh!tball hotels I am in are not THAT comfortable anyhow. Half the time the FBO is better.

It is just another example how poor management all around makes them unable to actually put a plan into action. They don't maintain the planes well, so they can't count on them working...they don't maintain the pilots well, same story there...I will go to the FBO every time and sit vs. being rudely awakened and forced into duty hours earlier than expected.

They burn duty hours before trips...they burn duty hours at the end of trips too...heck, they burn DAYS at the ends of tours when planes are down and they won't let the pilots go home a day or two early. All they do is build up more and more resentment and set in an attitude where even after a contract is signed, pilots aren't going to do many favors. You know what that means? FAILURE...plain and simple. These stupid managers playing these games, are doomed to fail.

For my money IBT1108 DID solve that problem. The pilots at Flops are much happier knowing when they are going to duty on instead of having to hope the phone doesn't ring.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Think of it this way. If you duty off at 5pm on one day, per the Flex FOM, they can call you at 1am for a 3am show regardless of what the original plan was. Now, there are definitely some days where I can hit the sack early, but even if you are asleep by 8pm you'll be getting only 5 hours of shuteye before the phone rings. Are you really rested at that point? Some are, many are not.

Let's be more realistic though. I generally hit the sack between 9-11pm. Flex has a self imposed 10 hour duty limitation on duty starting before 4am CST. So, assuming I go to sleep with a planned duty on 10 or 11am, Flex can call me at 2am, have me show at 4am, and run me until 8 pm on 4-5 hours of rest. It makes for many a bleary-eyed pilot.

 

[XTW]

I am NOT a Flexjet guy,....


The way these fracs operate, this becomes the norm and the pilots just get wasted from day after day of this BS. There is no predictability to anything so how are you supposed to be rested.

Do not lump all fracs into this pile. NJ and CS both duty off at a specific time and are given a set time to duty on prior to being released from the current duty period. No questions.


X

 

[jackpilot]

How often does the early morning scenarios actually happen at Flexjet?

 

[JokerFuel]

In all honesty, they are usually pretty good about giving you a heads up on an early call out. It also seems to be getting better as of late. That being said, it still sucks!!!

 

[jackpilot]

In all honesty, they are usually pretty good about giving you a heads up on an early call out. It also seems to be getting better as of late. That being said, it still sucks!!!

Thanks for that info.

The reason I'm asking is because I've accepted a position with them. The timeline between submitting an application, interview, job offer, and acceptance was only 2 wks.

I didnt have a lot of time to research all the nuances of Flexjet life. This "rolling rest" situation is giving me some pause. I have not started training yet. And it sounds like Flexjet is the last of the fractionals to be using this dinosaur scheduling method.

I'm hoping it doesnt happen too often. Considering everything else I know, Flexjet seems to be a top notch company.

Thanks guys.

 

[Buckeye]

I think rolling rest is better explained by looking at flying cargo. Example your duty ends at midnight, 10 hours rest makes you legal at 1000. Once your legal you will set in the state of suspended animation until you are paged for a trip. The question is; are you on duty while waiting for a trip or not? If not then you are up all day then get a trip at 0200 in the morning making your duty day ending the next day at 1600. You couldpossible be up for 30 hours. Until this gets regulated in Part 135 then, but reading under 91.1057 it seems that you have to be assigned a duty period after rest. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Yep, IBT 1108 solved that problem allright. Now you can see crews showing up at 0700 and sitting all day at an FBO with no plane. An alternative to the above scenario is where the crew has a beer, calls it a day, and if they do get an early call-out, they are ready. If no calls, they are in their room resting. Can it be abused..sure. Depends on management. Careful what you chose.

IBT1108 (read as the crews) did fix the problem in 2004-2005 for NJA. When the Company tried to leverage a contract by sitting pilots in the FB) with no airplane and/or no other crewmember, they just spotlighted intentions that were negotiated out in the 2005 CBA and improved upon in the 2007 CBA. The pilots spoke their collective voice into a contract in which you are either on duty or in rest - period. Under the 2007 CBA if you get sent to an FBO with no airplane and/or no other crewmember, you get OT after 3 hours and double OT after 7 on top of any other OT you get. Once in a while they will probably pay up but by and large they will probably just keep the pilot or crew in the hotel, on duty. While in the hotel you are on duty and not in "rolling rest". That will let crews plan their rest which will aid in decreasing fatigue situations and contribute to safer operations.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Here's a scenario that could happen. You get into seattle at 4pm, and you are told that you are flying to NY the next night at 10pm. so you are doing a red-eye flight. so, you plan to stay up until maybe 4am, then sleep until mid afternoon or something, whatever you think you need to be rested to fly through the night. So you stay up watching late night TV, infomercials, then turn off the light at 4am. at 4: 01 the phone rings, and the company tells you to report to the airport as there is now a 7am trip on you to do something else. oopps....

 

[jetwash]

Yep, IBT 1108 solved that problem allright. Now you can see crews showing up at 0700 and sitting all day at an FBO with no plane.

At Flops you are on duty at 5:00 am standing by for a trip at 11:00 am.

If the company wants to burn 6 hours of your duty time with you sitting at the FBO (sleeping) in the morning they will pay for it when there is a late afternoon/evening pop up trip and you are out of duty time at 7:00 pm.

There have been many charters just because crews were put on duty an hour too early in the morning.

 

[DirtyBeech]

jackpilot,
Welcome to Flex. You'll find that it's a good place to work and is tetering on becoming a great place to work. I haven't had many early wake up calls recently. I did have one on my last rotation, but it was the first in a long time. Whether or not it's happening to me, I know that it is happening to others, and it's not right. Our mgt. in combination with the CAB have made resolving the rest issue the top priority for both parties in the first quarter. Some see that as a reason for hope, others see it as a bunch of fluff. Either way, Flex's QOL issues will only improve through active employee involvement so jump in and lend a hand.

 

[jackpilot]

Thanks DB. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[cherry20's]

Hey jack, does Flex still have a 2 year contract?

 

[bailey3083]

Have had that happen with a red eye from the west coast to the east coast. We both stayed up all night because we were going to be up all night. I went to bed at 5am and the hotel phone rang at 6am notifying me of new trips 8 am show and a 13 hour day. I complained and after 10 hours the finally took the last trip off us sent us to the hotel only to wake us up the next morning at 5am.

 

[fischman]

I just want to be completely clear. Are you required to answer the phone?

 

[JokerFuel]

Fischman, the company may attempt to contact us within the first two hours of the ten hour rest period, or within the last two hours of the ten hour rest period, without causing an interruption in rest. We are not required to have our phones on during the rest period. It is up to an individual crewmember to keep the phone on, (including leaving the room phone plugged in). You are not required to answer the phone at any point while in rest.

 

[finnjl]

At Flex you are in rest at 5PM if you finish early and are available at 3 AM if they need you.

The examples of rolling rest I can think of would be home reserve or if you are setting in the hotel with nothing to do. I would imagine it would go like this. You get a call at 12 noon and are required to work until 2 AM. (14 hours) You are not sure when your duty is going to start and I imagine that is what is called rolling rest.

If you do nothing all day then you are typically put in rest at 5PM again.



You are always given 10 or 12 hours of rest as appropriate

 

[jackpilot]

Hey jack, does Flex still have a 2 year contract?

Yes they do. I signed one.

 

[gunfyter]

Fischman, the company may attempt to contact us within the first two hours of the ten hour rest period, or within the last two hours of the ten hour rest period, without causing an interruption in rest. We are not required to have our phones on during the rest period. It is up to an individual crewmember to keep the phone on, (including leaving the room phone plugged in). You are not required to answer the phone at any point while in rest.

if you have to answer the phone you are not in rest. What happens after 10 hrs? Ie, off duty at 2000L. Briefed for 0900 show tomorrow. Do you have to answer phone 0600-0900?

If you do, 0600-0900 does not qualify as rest whether you are called or not. You will duty time out by 2000L. Though I am sure they probably think they can use you until 2300, they are wrong. So is your FSDO.

Our FSDO had to be educated by the FAA Chief Counsel's office. I have the address if you need it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

You are not required to answer the phone at any point while in rest.

but what about the timeframe from the end of the 10 hours to the start of your assigned duty day? Are we required to answer our phones then?

 

[Hobbes]

Inigo,

When is the rest requirement per the FAR? Before your duty day? Or after you duty off?

The first 10 hours of time off is not your required rest, the last 10 hours prior to your duty on is. If they have given you a duty on time of 10 am for example, they should not be calling you from midnight on. think about it. Mgmt banks on the fact that you will assume your 10 hours of required rest is the first 10 hours after you duty off, so they can use you again when their fires are burning. The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

 

[CA1900]

From 91K (91.1057):

Rest period means a period of time required pursuant to this subpart that is free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember or flight attendant cannot be required to receive contact from the program manager. A rest period does not include any time during which the program manager imposes on a flight crewmember or flight attendant any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

In other words, if you're waiting by the phone to determine when you start work, you're not in rest.

If the company wants you to be available after 10 hours, that's fine, but it ceased to be a rest period at that point.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Inigo,The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

well, yeah that makes sense. it is not what we do around here tho. they use the "lookback" principle, so as long as you can "look back" 24 hours and see a 10 hour uninterpreted rest block, then you are good to go. So, for example you get in at 10pm, with a 4pm assignment the next day. they call at 8am and say go to the airport. is that legal? Happens all the time, everybody I know does it. In that example it is not a huge deal since you are probably well rested anyway.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Rolling rest is a perfect ingredient that goes in a pot of CRASH soup.

It brings on fatigue and all sorts of spicy things.

Any company that promotes this type of scheduling is prioritizing Service and Schedule above Safety.

The priority is quite simple for companies with a "long view" of the industry.

1) SAFETY

2) SERVICE

3) SCHEDULE

One that is prioritized lower shall NOT trump a higher.

Calling a pilot in the middle of a rest cycle (middle of the night) and giving them an ASAP is not safe. Ask me how I know... NJA used to use the same practice prior to 91K but we were "required" to answer the phone... unless we were "in the gym" or "going for a walk" at 3am like I usually was.

Be safe guys. It's cold and dark at 3am. Much of the safety infrastructure (layers of safety) we enjoy during daylight hours is not available in the wee hours. You might think you are sharp after a jarring early morning call but that is just the adrenaline talking.

The mind and body have a very hard time adjusting to unscheduled wake-ups. Even with training and conditioning it's something that some people never adjust to.

 

[gunfyter]

well, yeah that makes sense. it is not what we do around here tho. they use the "lookback" principle, so as long as you can "look back" 24 hours and see a 10 hour uninterpreted rest block, then you are good to go. So, for example you get in at 10pm, with a 4pm assignment the next day. they call at 8am and say go to the airport. is that legal? Happens all the time, everybody I know does it. In that example it is not a huge deal since you are probably well rested anyway.

I see your misunderstanding. You look back 24 hrs and find 10 hrs you were not "on duty". But what you need to do is look back and find 10 hrs of REST. Not the same thing. Rest does not equal being off duty. It equals no possibility of being called on to duty that you knew about before you went into Rest.

The moment you are liable to be called to duty... You Rest period is over ... Whether you are called or not and your 14 hr clock is running.

 

[fly26]

QOL on the road using the look back technique sux big time. When should I go to bed? When should I eat? When do I work out? etc, etc are all questions you will find yourself asking every night. Not that NJA used to call in the middle of the night very often......but it was a possibility EVERY night!

This has been a huge QOL benefit since we implemented new rest rules when 91K launched.

Good luck with Flex.

 

[notapilot]

if you have to answer the phone you are not in rest. What happens after 10 hrs? Ie, off duty at 2000L. Briefed for 0900 show tomorrow. Do you have to answer phone 0600-0900?

If you do, 0600-0900 does not qualify as rest whether you are called or not. You will duty time out by 2000L. Though I am sure they probably think they can use you until 2300, they are wrong. So is your FSDO.

Our FSDO had to be educated by the FAA Chief Counsel's office. I have the address if you need it.

Please post the address and any rulings or articles that relate. We all thank you. I am under the impression that we have a waiver to operate our rest under part 135 rather than 91k. Any regs gurus know what the difference is?