Rolling Rest - Explain Please.

[Av8tor]

Flexjet the only Frac with floating rest. Does it happen here, yes. Will it stop, I hope so. They will drag this one as long as they can. VOTE YES AND THANK ALL THE NETJETS PILOTS YOU SEE> If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have jack at Flex.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

 

[bluepost]

I will say that designated rest has been the biggest improvement by DOUBLE at NJ since I have been here. Better then money, food and 7and7.

Rolling rest is one of those things that seems kind of crappy when living with it, but once you look back you wonder how you ever did it.

I was shut off at 6pm tonight and show tomorrow at 1pm. 19 hours off. That cannot change, will not change and I will not receive any phone calls until 1pm tomorrow.

As a result I am staying up late relaxing, watching the debate and typing and reading and will sleep in late rested and fully prepared for my day at 1pm.

 

[gunfyter]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

ed,

This is like Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchet thanking Mr Scrooge for Christmas turkey. It was the Ghost of Christmas Future (1108), that brought Scrooge and Marley to their senses.

 

[finnjl]

I think a lot of the discussion of answering the phone the last 2 hours of rest is not a rolling rest issue. That is a different issue. So I think some are confusing that rule with rolling rest.

I am going out on a limb here and I am probably going to get bashed but in my 2 plus years I have not been adversly affected by rolling rest.

Although answering the phone at 1AM stinks and I would like to see that fixed more than rolling rest.

 

[bluepost]

Even if they don't call you 95% of the time you are always looking over your shoulder during your rest wondering, updating, thinking. You don't realize it but you are. Once that threat is removed it feels like a major orgasm, you could never think it could feel so good.

 

[Pacific]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

 

[gunfyter]

maybe you can get an interpretation on that scenario from the FAA Chief Counsel. We did in the early 1990's. That's why fractional flying was afterward done part 91 instead of 135. But then 91k closed that loophole.

 

[Seahawk]

What you can do next time when you obviously know you will become fatigued is tell them you will be unsafe to fly and decline the additional trips. That will get their attention. You are on top of the ball game then. Fatigue is sneaky and will get you eventually.

 

[Flex-ible]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

Clearly not ideal - but would "no rolling rest" have prevented this? Looking at the timeline, you were in rest until 1700 local, which means they can keep you until 0700 local. Since this was a pop-up trip at the END of the day rather than moving up the start time, I do not see how the no "rolling rest" rule would have prevented it.

Maybe the NJ guys can chime in - is there a rule that would have prevented this over there?

 

[Pacific]

??
The 1700 lcl rest began the night before all this took place. We were scheduled to come out of rest at 0930am the next morning. That was pushed back (floated) until that evening at 1800 lcl when all the fun began. If the original on duty time of 0930 would have stuck then would have been limited to duty stop time of 2330lcl the same day, not 0800am the following day which is what was presented once our duty start time was floated until 1800lcl.

 

[gunfyter]

Clearly not ideal - but would "no rolling rest" have prevented this? Looking at the timeline, you were in rest until 1700 local, which means they can keep you until 0700 local. Since this was a pop-up trip at the END of the day rather than moving up the start time, I do not see how the no "rolling rest" rule would have prevented it.

Maybe the NJ guys can chime in - is there a rule that would have prevented this over there?

Yes.

His Rest ended @ 0300L... when he was required to answer the phone if they called. He should have been done flying by 1700L.

Time Not on Duty does not equal Rest.

Not a NJ rule ... its an FAR.
========================================

March 14, 1991
Mr. Thomas T. Gasta
Dear Mr. Gasta:
Thank you for your letter of September 13, 1990, regarding "standby and reserve duty." We apologize for the delay in responding to you.
You advise that you work as a pilot for an on-demand Part 135 charter company. Your question deals with the flight and duty time limitations outlined in Part 135. You ask what the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) considers to be duty or "required rest" when dealing with a flight crewmember who is performing a "standby" or "reserve" function for the air carrier.
The facts as we understand them are that at 600 a.m. you called the certificate holder to obtain your flight assignments for that day. You were told that as of 600 a.m. there were no flights to assign to you, but you were instructed to await immediate flight assignment by remaining at the hotel for contact by the certificate holder or, if not in your room at the hotel, to call the certificate holder every hour without fail to ascertain if a flight assignment materialized. We infer that the purpose of this procedure was to place you in the status of being immediately available for flight assignment if the occasion arose.
Your specific question is whether the period from 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday, in the fact situation described in your letter, qualifies as a rest period under FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and Sec. 135.263(d). We shall discuss rest requirements as applied to standby/reserve principles generally and then answer your specific question.
FAR Sec. 135.263(b) reads:
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
FAR Sec. 135.263(d) reads:
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
The FAA has consistently interpreted duty in FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and other similar regulations to mean either actual work for the air carrier, or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. In addition, the period of relief from all duty must be prospective and free from all restraint to qualify as rest under that rule. When a flight crewmember is required to hold himself available for immediate assignment to flight duty by standing by the telephone (or via other communicative device, e.g., beeper), it constitutes restraint which precludes counting such time as a required rest period. Thus, under Sec. 135.263(b), an air carrier is prohibited from requiring a flight crewmember to standby the telephone for immediate availability during a required rest period.
The answer to your question is that the period 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday does not qualify as a rest period required by FAR Sec. 135.263(b) because you were required to standby the telephone and keep yourself available for immediate assignment to flight duty. As such, that period constitutes a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, and therefore is duty.
We feel constrained to comment that apparently the air carrier did not consider the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. period as a required rest period because the air carrier assigned you to a required rest period of 1000 p.m. Tuesday to 800 a.m. Wednesday for the 800 a.m. Wednesday flight. It was only after the air carrier changed the schedule by assigning you the Miami-Houston and subsequent flight that the air carrier retroactively treated the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday period as a required rest period.
We also note that you raise a point on page 2 of your letter regarding the requirement for scheduled operators to relieve a flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours in any 7 consecutive days (FAR Sec. 135.265(d)). At this time, without the specific facts being available to us, all we can say is that you have raised a valid question. If you want to give us the precise facts concerning what was required of the flight crewmember, we will be glad to give you an interpretation.
We trust that we have satisfactorily answered your questions.
This response has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service.
Sincerely,
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
cc:AGC-220/200

 

[notapilot]

Thanks. That about takes care of that. How is Flexjet getting away with this "rolling rest"?

 

[WabiSabi]

Inigo,

When is the rest requirement per the FAR? Before your duty day? Or after you duty off?

The first 10 hours of time off is not your required rest, the last 10 hours prior to your duty on is. If they have given you a duty on time of 10 am for example, they should not be calling you from midnight on. think about it. Mgmt banks on the fact that you will assume your 10 hours of required rest is the first 10 hours after you duty off, so they can use you again when their fires are burning. The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

exactly! short and sweet. thank you. it's about looking back.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It does seem like we are blatantly violating the FARs. how is this being allowed? In my years at flex this has not really been addressed by management. have they ever come out and talked about it?

sincerely,

confused & restless