Rolling Rest - Explain Please.

[gunfyter]

how is this being allowed?

Smokey the Bear use to say... "Only YOU can prevent forest fires."


Maybe only YOU can prevent Rolling Rest?

 

[gunfyter]

United States Court of Appeals
For the First Circuit


No. 99-1888

AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,

Petitioner,

v.

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,

Respondent.


ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF
THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/aug99/99-1888.01a.html​

 

[theskyking]

You guys have got yourselves a nice little Catch 22 there. If it is determined that the company is violating rest requirement, well you too, as PIC, are violating the same requirements.

You guys be careful out there. Tough rope to be walking trying to keep your company happy while being put in the position of possibly breaking regs. Sounds like you guys might want to take the steps Tom did and get a letter of clarification from someone higher up than your POI.

 

[gunfyter]

King,

It doesn't end with rolling rest. Late Pax cause you to go over 14 hrs? Sorry. FAA is not on board with that.

Even if the pax are on time and your trip is scheduled to be comleted @ 13:30 minutes when you taxi out. TEB tower tells you expect a 45 minute delay as you taxi towards the Hold Short line for takeoff....

You have to Return to the gate because now you cannot complete the flight in 14 hrs. Or get Dispatch to file you someplace else (Change Destination) you can reach in 14 hrs.... Crew change to complete the trip.

Yes I have the court documents for that too.

 

[Flex-ible]

??
The 1700 lcl rest began the night before all this took place. We were scheduled to come out of rest at 0930am the next morning. That was pushed back (floated) until that evening at 1800 lcl when all the fun began. If the original on duty time of 0930 would have stuck then would have been limited to duty stop time of 2330lcl the same day, not 0800am the following day which is what was presented once our duty start time was floated until 1800lcl.

Got it. I thought the big issue was with moving start times up - not back. I still think that is a bigger issue than this particular case.

 

[theskyking]

Gun

That scenario plays itself out in the 121 world all the time, too. So there is a lot of precedent set. I remember many a time out of ORD, when the line for TO was easily 100 planes long. You would hear guys telling tower that if they weren't wheels up by such and such time that they were heading back to the gate due to duty issues.

So, who do you want to fight in the long run, FJ management or the FAA? And if you choose to fight management, who is willing to step up to the plate first? Whoever it is had better document every conversation, save every email, and take lots of notes. Without a union to back you, you might be on your own trying to get your job back somewhere down the line.

Good luck.

 

[gunfyter]

King,

I nominate Iam3rd and some of the others who say they don't need/want a union.

They can do it on their own ... don't need a third party getting in the way. We union guys are weak and have to rely on a mob they say.

 

[gutshotdraw]

King,

It doesn't end with rolling rest. Late Pax cause you to go over 14 hrs? Sorry. FAA is not on board with that.

Even if the pax are on time and your trip is scheduled to be comleted @ 13:30 minutes when you taxi out. TEB tower tells you expect a 45 minute delay as you taxi towards the Hold Short line for takeoff....

You have to Return to the gate because now you cannot complete the flight in 14 hrs. Or get Dispatch to file you someplace else (Change Destination) you can reach in 14 hrs.... Crew change to complete the trip.

Yes I have the court documents for that too.

Our POI says late pax is a condition "beyond the control of the operator" and allows us to complete the flight even if it will exceed the 14 duty day. I don't agree with that because the Whitlow letter from FAA specifically deems late pax controllable by the operator. Regardless, that is what our management expects and demands. I'm guessing that will change sometime in the next three years

As for taxiing out legal and then getting a lineup at the runway that would put you over, that IS a condition beyond the control of the operator, specifically an ATC delay, and is specifically exempted from the 14 hour limit. They call it "legal to start, legal to finish." But if you launch, have a problem, and were over 14, FAA tags you with "careless and reckless." Once again, pilot stuck in the middle.

With regard to rolling rest, if they try to duty you on after 10 hours of rest but before the originally scheduled turn-on time, in our company it can ONLY be for Part 91 repositioning flights. You are NOT eligible to conduct a Program 91K or Part 135 flight until after you go back into rest for at least 10 hours. As for me, when my pager says turn-on at XX:XX, that is the end of my rest period. The FOM specifically says a crewmember cannot be required to receive contact for purposes of company operations during a rest period. Ergo, pager antenna off and phone in room no workie until duty-on time.

 

[gunfyter]

Two things....

1. POI's are not authorized to interpret the FARs. Only the FAA Chief Counsel may.


2. ATC delay that you learn of before crossing the Hold Short line is controllable by the operator. You can taxi back or change destination fro a crew swap.


I have the court documents and have posted them here or in the 135 charter section about 5 yrs ago I think.

Personally I am fine with going with an ATC delay if I feel I wont be fatigued.... I just don't want to be violated. But I am not sure that NJ or the POI who said its OK to do ... will stand up for me.

 

[gunfyter]

Blasts from the past

Duty and Rest:

Response Time


Legal to Start legal to Finish?

Flexjet info...

 

[gunfyter]

For GutShot:

A. FAA's Interpretation of FAR 121.471​

Because the Whitlow Letter7 constitutes the FAA's inter-​

pretation of its own regulation, that interpretation must be​

afforded substantial deference and upheld unless "plainly​

erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation." Thomas Jef-​

ferson Univ. v. Shalala, 512 U.S. 504, 512 (1994); see also​

__________​

5 If the flight is away from the gate but not yet in the air, the ​

flight may not take off. As a matter of enforcement policy, the ​

FAA will not charge a violation of the rest requirements if a delay ​

that first becomes known after the flight is in the air disrupts the ​

scheduled flight time, provided the required minimum reduced rest ​

and the compensatory rest occur at the completion of that flight ​

segment. See Whitlow Letter at 4.​

<...>​

The FAA responds that the phrase "scheduled completion​

of any flight segment" can reasonably be understood to​

include a re-scheduled flight time based on actual flight​

conditions. To be sure, "scheduled completion" can be con-​

strued narrowly to refer only to the originally scheduled​

flight completion time. The point, however, is that the FAA's​

more expansive interpretation is not unreasonable. A re-​

scheduled completion of a flight segment based on flight​

conditions existing in fact is nonetheless a "scheduled" com-​

pletion. Nothing in the text of FAR 121.471 or in the​

ordinary usage of the word "scheduled"8 dictates that the​

timetable of a particular flight segment can be determined​

only when the schedule is originally created regardless of​

adjustments made necessary by then-current conditions.​

============================​

1 The flight time limitation rules applicable to "major scheduled​

air carriers" and "other airlines operating large transport category​

airplanes" are contained in Part 121 of the FAR. The flight time​

limitation rules applicable to scheduled air carriers operating air-​

planes of 30 or fewer seats and air taxi operations are contained in​

Part 135 of the FAR. The substance of the rules in Parts 121 and ​

135 is essentially the same and the rules are likewise interpreted.​

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/commo...5/01-1027a.txt​

 

[ProFracPilot]

If the flight is away from the gate but not yet in the air, the

flight may not take off. As a matter of enforcement policy, the FAA will not charge a violation of the rest requirements if a delay that first becomes known after the flight is in the air disrupts the scheduled flight time, provided the required minimum reduced rest and the compensatory rest occur at the completion of that flight segment. See Whitlow Letter at 4.​

<...>​

The FAA responds that the phrase "scheduled completion of any flight segment" can reasonably be understood to include a re-scheduled flight time based on actual flight conditions. To be sure, "scheduled completion" can be con-strued narrowly to refer only to the originally scheduled flight completion time. The point, however, is that the FAA's more expansive interpretation is not unreasonable. A re-scheduled completion of a flight segment based on flight conditions existing in fact is nonetheless a "scheduled" completion. Nothing in the text of FAR 121.471 or in the ordinary usage of the word "scheduled"8 dictates that the timetable of a particular flight segment can be determined only when the schedule is originally created regardless of adjustments made necessary by then-current conditions.​

============================​

1 The flight time limitation rules applicable to "major scheduled air carriers" and "other airlines operating large transport category airplanes" are contained in Part 121 of the FAR. The flight time limitation rules applicable to scheduled air carriers operating air-planes of 30 or fewer seats and air taxi operations are contained in Part 135 of the FAR. The substance of the rules in Parts 121 and 135 is essentially the same and the rules are likewise interpreted.​

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/commo...5/01-1027a.txt ​

Careful. It appears that you're mixing FLIGHT TIME into a DUTY TIME and REQUIRED REST discussion. Or am I missing something here?

When the term "compensatory rest" comes into play, this refers only to exceeding FLIGHT TIME limitations. There are no FAR requirements (that I'm aware of) for compensatory rest for exceeding 14 hours of duty beyond your last 10 hour rest period.

 

[gunfyter]

Pro,

You are making my job hard.

Here is the link to full text of Whitlow letter:
Full text of the letter dated November 20, 2000 from FAA Deputy Chief Counsel Whitlow

You will come to this conclusion:

If ... it is known or should be known that arrival based upon the actual expected flight time will not result in at least 10 hours of look-back rest, then the flight may not leave the gate. If the flight is away from the gate, but not yet in the air, then the flight may not take off.

No one should take my work for it.... If you are still not sure, write to:

Federal Aviation Administration
Office of the Chief Counsel, AGC-1
800 Independence Avenue
Washington, DC 20591​

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gun, just remember one thing: You go into a FSDO and ask 5 inspectors for an interpretation of an FAR and you'll get 6 answers. And that includes the Chief Counsel's office. The ones who REALLY make the rules are the NTSB Administrative Law judges who rule on appeals from either the FAA or the Airman as the case may be.

Our boss once stood in a recurrent and held up the FAR and said: "This is the guideline." Then he held up a sheaf of NTSB rulings and said: "These are the rules." I can't quote them or cite them for you, but they have NTSB rulings that company counsel believes back their interpretation. I just try to keep myself from ever finding out first-hand who's right, and who's grounded (with apologies to the Dread Pirate Roberts).

 

[gunfyter]

The FAA has in recent years asked for comments on this issue. In reading the request for comments you can sometimes see what the FAA is trying to go after. In this case it looks like they were trying make the 135 interpretation consistent with Whitlow.

Go to http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm and enter docket number 23438 for additional information.

135 Managements argument is that Whitlow only applies to 121 because 135.267d refers to the entire duty day where 121 refers to each flight segment.

A reasonable person would conclude this is a distinction without a difference when it comes to bent metal and/or broken bones.

But this is their justification for flying over 14 hrs that you will find if you read the comments in the docket above.
======================================

There has also been a 135 ARC working group ... of Managements trying to change 135 Rest rules to their favor. Google ... 135 ARC Duty and Rest.

Question. If time a pilot is waiting for a call to duty can be considered rest, Why is the industry fighting to change 135 Rest rules?