Rolling Rest - Explain Please.

[jackpilot]

Hey jack, does Flex still have a 2 year contract?

Yes they do. I signed one.

 

[gunfyter]

Fischman, the company may attempt to contact us within the first two hours of the ten hour rest period, or within the last two hours of the ten hour rest period, without causing an interruption in rest. We are not required to have our phones on during the rest period. It is up to an individual crewmember to keep the phone on, (including leaving the room phone plugged in). You are not required to answer the phone at any point while in rest.

if you have to answer the phone you are not in rest. What happens after 10 hrs? Ie, off duty at 2000L. Briefed for 0900 show tomorrow. Do you have to answer phone 0600-0900?

If you do, 0600-0900 does not qualify as rest whether you are called or not. You will duty time out by 2000L. Though I am sure they probably think they can use you until 2300, they are wrong. So is your FSDO.

Our FSDO had to be educated by the FAA Chief Counsel's office. I have the address if you need it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

You are not required to answer the phone at any point while in rest.

but what about the timeframe from the end of the 10 hours to the start of your assigned duty day? Are we required to answer our phones then?

 

[Hobbes]

Inigo,

When is the rest requirement per the FAR? Before your duty day? Or after you duty off?

The first 10 hours of time off is not your required rest, the last 10 hours prior to your duty on is. If they have given you a duty on time of 10 am for example, they should not be calling you from midnight on. think about it. Mgmt banks on the fact that you will assume your 10 hours of required rest is the first 10 hours after you duty off, so they can use you again when their fires are burning. The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

 

[CA1900]

From 91K (91.1057):

Rest period means a period of time required pursuant to this subpart that is free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember or flight attendant cannot be required to receive contact from the program manager. A rest period does not include any time during which the program manager imposes on a flight crewmember or flight attendant any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

In other words, if you're waiting by the phone to determine when you start work, you're not in rest.

If the company wants you to be available after 10 hours, that's fine, but it ceased to be a rest period at that point.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Inigo,The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

well, yeah that makes sense. it is not what we do around here tho. they use the "lookback" principle, so as long as you can "look back" 24 hours and see a 10 hour uninterpreted rest block, then you are good to go. So, for example you get in at 10pm, with a 4pm assignment the next day. they call at 8am and say go to the airport. is that legal? Happens all the time, everybody I know does it. In that example it is not a huge deal since you are probably well rested anyway.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Rolling rest is a perfect ingredient that goes in a pot of CRASH soup.

It brings on fatigue and all sorts of spicy things.

Any company that promotes this type of scheduling is prioritizing Service and Schedule above Safety.

The priority is quite simple for companies with a "long view" of the industry.

1) SAFETY

2) SERVICE

3) SCHEDULE

One that is prioritized lower shall NOT trump a higher.

Calling a pilot in the middle of a rest cycle (middle of the night) and giving them an ASAP is not safe. Ask me how I know... NJA used to use the same practice prior to 91K but we were "required" to answer the phone... unless we were "in the gym" or "going for a walk" at 3am like I usually was.

Be safe guys. It's cold and dark at 3am. Much of the safety infrastructure (layers of safety) we enjoy during daylight hours is not available in the wee hours. You might think you are sharp after a jarring early morning call but that is just the adrenaline talking.

The mind and body have a very hard time adjusting to unscheduled wake-ups. Even with training and conditioning it's something that some people never adjust to.

 

[gunfyter]

well, yeah that makes sense. it is not what we do around here tho. they use the "lookback" principle, so as long as you can "look back" 24 hours and see a 10 hour uninterpreted rest block, then you are good to go. So, for example you get in at 10pm, with a 4pm assignment the next day. they call at 8am and say go to the airport. is that legal? Happens all the time, everybody I know does it. In that example it is not a huge deal since you are probably well rested anyway.

I see your misunderstanding. You look back 24 hrs and find 10 hrs you were not "on duty". But what you need to do is look back and find 10 hrs of REST. Not the same thing. Rest does not equal being off duty. It equals no possibility of being called on to duty that you knew about before you went into Rest.

The moment you are liable to be called to duty... You Rest period is over ... Whether you are called or not and your 14 hr clock is running.

 

[fly26]

QOL on the road using the look back technique sux big time. When should I go to bed? When should I eat? When do I work out? etc, etc are all questions you will find yourself asking every night. Not that NJA used to call in the middle of the night very often......but it was a possibility EVERY night!

This has been a huge QOL benefit since we implemented new rest rules when 91K launched.

Good luck with Flex.

 

[notapilot]

if you have to answer the phone you are not in rest. What happens after 10 hrs? Ie, off duty at 2000L. Briefed for 0900 show tomorrow. Do you have to answer phone 0600-0900?

If you do, 0600-0900 does not qualify as rest whether you are called or not. You will duty time out by 2000L. Though I am sure they probably think they can use you until 2300, they are wrong. So is your FSDO.

Our FSDO had to be educated by the FAA Chief Counsel's office. I have the address if you need it.

Please post the address and any rulings or articles that relate. We all thank you. I am under the impression that we have a waiver to operate our rest under part 135 rather than 91k. Any regs gurus know what the difference is?

 

[Av8tor]

Flexjet the only Frac with floating rest. Does it happen here, yes. Will it stop, I hope so. They will drag this one as long as they can. VOTE YES AND THANK ALL THE NETJETS PILOTS YOU SEE> If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have jack at Flex.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

 

[bluepost]

I will say that designated rest has been the biggest improvement by DOUBLE at NJ since I have been here. Better then money, food and 7and7.

Rolling rest is one of those things that seems kind of crappy when living with it, but once you look back you wonder how you ever did it.

I was shut off at 6pm tonight and show tomorrow at 1pm. 19 hours off. That cannot change, will not change and I will not receive any phone calls until 1pm tomorrow.

As a result I am staying up late relaxing, watching the debate and typing and reading and will sleep in late rested and fully prepared for my day at 1pm.

 

[gunfyter]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

ed,

This is like Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchet thanking Mr Scrooge for Christmas turkey. It was the Ghost of Christmas Future (1108), that brought Scrooge and Marley to their senses.

 

[finnjl]

I think a lot of the discussion of answering the phone the last 2 hours of rest is not a rolling rest issue. That is a different issue. So I think some are confusing that rule with rolling rest.

I am going out on a limb here and I am probably going to get bashed but in my 2 plus years I have not been adversly affected by rolling rest.

Although answering the phone at 1AM stinks and I would like to see that fixed more than rolling rest.

 

[bluepost]

Even if they don't call you 95% of the time you are always looking over your shoulder during your rest wondering, updating, thinking. You don't realize it but you are. Once that threat is removed it feels like a major orgasm, you could never think it could feel so good.

 

[Pacific]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

 

[gunfyter]

maybe you can get an interpretation on that scenario from the FAA Chief Counsel. We did in the early 1990's. That's why fractional flying was afterward done part 91 instead of 135. But then 91k closed that loophole.

 

[Seahawk]

What you can do next time when you obviously know you will become fatigued is tell them you will be unsafe to fly and decline the additional trips. That will get their attention. You are on top of the ball game then. Fatigue is sneaky and will get you eventually.

 

[Flex-ible]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

Clearly not ideal - but would "no rolling rest" have prevented this? Looking at the timeline, you were in rest until 1700 local, which means they can keep you until 0700 local. Since this was a pop-up trip at the END of the day rather than moving up the start time, I do not see how the no "rolling rest" rule would have prevented it.

Maybe the NJ guys can chime in - is there a rule that would have prevented this over there?