Rolling Rest - Explain Please.

[Av8tor]

Flexjet the only Frac with floating rest. Does it happen here, yes. Will it stop, I hope so. They will drag this one as long as they can. VOTE YES AND THANK ALL THE NETJETS PILOTS YOU SEE> If it wasn't for them you wouldn't have jack at Flex.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

 

[bluepost]

I will say that designated rest has been the biggest improvement by DOUBLE at NJ since I have been here. Better then money, food and 7and7.

Rolling rest is one of those things that seems kind of crappy when living with it, but once you look back you wonder how you ever did it.

I was shut off at 6pm tonight and show tomorrow at 1pm. 19 hours off. That cannot change, will not change and I will not receive any phone calls until 1pm tomorrow.

As a result I am staying up late relaxing, watching the debate and typing and reading and will sleep in late rested and fully prepared for my day at 1pm.

 

[gunfyter]

Personally, I ain't thanking them, but rather Uncle Warren!

As for the floating rest, the situation is looming in front of our management. It cannot stand, whether or not we have a union. As a victim, today! of a 10 hour rest 3am phone call, I can tell you that this situation will be corrected one way or another...then what will you guys have to bich about???

Grow up, you guys! I used to enjoy the debate on this board, but lately it's been just a bunch of whiners whose goal of a union at FJ has been clearly defeated.

ed,

This is like Tiny Tim and Bob Cratchet thanking Mr Scrooge for Christmas turkey. It was the Ghost of Christmas Future (1108), that brought Scrooge and Marley to their senses.

 

[finnjl]

I think a lot of the discussion of answering the phone the last 2 hours of rest is not a rolling rest issue. That is a different issue. So I think some are confusing that rule with rolling rest.

I am going out on a limb here and I am probably going to get bashed but in my 2 plus years I have not been adversly affected by rolling rest.

Although answering the phone at 1AM stinks and I would like to see that fixed more than rolling rest.

 

[bluepost]

Even if they don't call you 95% of the time you are always looking over your shoulder during your rest wondering, updating, thinking. You don't realize it but you are. Once that threat is removed it feels like a major orgasm, you could never think it could feel so good.

 

[Pacific]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

 

[gunfyter]

maybe you can get an interpretation on that scenario from the FAA Chief Counsel. We did in the early 1990's. That's why fractional flying was afterward done part 91 instead of 135. But then 91k closed that loophole.

 

[Seahawk]

What you can do next time when you obviously know you will become fatigued is tell them you will be unsafe to fly and decline the additional trips. That will get their attention. You are on top of the ball game then. Fatigue is sneaky and will get you eventually.

 

[Flex-ible]

Actual Scenario:

Rest began at 1700lcl

Trip show next morning scheduled for 0930lcl

Company calls at 0900 (I'm already in uniform and ready to head to the hotel lobby) and advises trips pushed back to 1800lcl (two short legs; no big deal)

After second leg and while closing out company calls with a pop up(two long legs)

Finished at 0515lcl (exhausted!!!)
At this point been awake for over 22 hrs and still need to make our way to the hotel,etc.

In retrospect we should have called in fatigued but the lack of sleep didn't really hit us until 1/4 of the way through last leg, pretty tough to call fatigued at that point.

Clearly not ideal - but would "no rolling rest" have prevented this? Looking at the timeline, you were in rest until 1700 local, which means they can keep you until 0700 local. Since this was a pop-up trip at the END of the day rather than moving up the start time, I do not see how the no "rolling rest" rule would have prevented it.

Maybe the NJ guys can chime in - is there a rule that would have prevented this over there?

 

[Pacific]

??
The 1700 lcl rest began the night before all this took place. We were scheduled to come out of rest at 0930am the next morning. That was pushed back (floated) until that evening at 1800 lcl when all the fun began. If the original on duty time of 0930 would have stuck then would have been limited to duty stop time of 2330lcl the same day, not 0800am the following day which is what was presented once our duty start time was floated until 1800lcl.

 

[gunfyter]

Clearly not ideal - but would "no rolling rest" have prevented this? Looking at the timeline, you were in rest until 1700 local, which means they can keep you until 0700 local. Since this was a pop-up trip at the END of the day rather than moving up the start time, I do not see how the no "rolling rest" rule would have prevented it.

Maybe the NJ guys can chime in - is there a rule that would have prevented this over there?

Yes.

His Rest ended @ 0300L... when he was required to answer the phone if they called. He should have been done flying by 1700L.

Time Not on Duty does not equal Rest.

Not a NJ rule ... its an FAR.
========================================

March 14, 1991
Mr. Thomas T. Gasta
Dear Mr. Gasta:
Thank you for your letter of September 13, 1990, regarding "standby and reserve duty." We apologize for the delay in responding to you.
You advise that you work as a pilot for an on-demand Part 135 charter company. Your question deals with the flight and duty time limitations outlined in Part 135. You ask what the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) considers to be duty or "required rest" when dealing with a flight crewmember who is performing a "standby" or "reserve" function for the air carrier.
The facts as we understand them are that at 600 a.m. you called the certificate holder to obtain your flight assignments for that day. You were told that as of 600 a.m. there were no flights to assign to you, but you were instructed to await immediate flight assignment by remaining at the hotel for contact by the certificate holder or, if not in your room at the hotel, to call the certificate holder every hour without fail to ascertain if a flight assignment materialized. We infer that the purpose of this procedure was to place you in the status of being immediately available for flight assignment if the occasion arose.
Your specific question is whether the period from 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday, in the fact situation described in your letter, qualifies as a rest period under FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and Sec. 135.263(d). We shall discuss rest requirements as applied to standby/reserve principles generally and then answer your specific question.
FAR Sec. 135.263(b) reads:
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
FAR Sec. 135.263(d) reads:
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
The FAA has consistently interpreted duty in FAR Sec. 135.263(b) and other similar regulations to mean either actual work for the air carrier, or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. In addition, the period of relief from all duty must be prospective and free from all restraint to qualify as rest under that rule. When a flight crewmember is required to hold himself available for immediate assignment to flight duty by standing by the telephone (or via other communicative device, e.g., beeper), it constitutes restraint which precludes counting such time as a required rest period. Thus, under Sec. 135.263(b), an air carrier is prohibited from requiring a flight crewmember to standby the telephone for immediate availability during a required rest period.
The answer to your question is that the period 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday does not qualify as a rest period required by FAR Sec. 135.263(b) because you were required to standby the telephone and keep yourself available for immediate assignment to flight duty. As such, that period constitutes a present responsibility for work should the occasion arise, and therefore is duty.
We feel constrained to comment that apparently the air carrier did not consider the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. period as a required rest period because the air carrier assigned you to a required rest period of 1000 p.m. Tuesday to 800 a.m. Wednesday for the 800 a.m. Wednesday flight. It was only after the air carrier changed the schedule by assigning you the Miami-Houston and subsequent flight that the air carrier retroactively treated the 600 a.m. to 600 p.m. Tuesday period as a required rest period.
We also note that you raise a point on page 2 of your letter regarding the requirement for scheduled operators to relieve a flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours in any 7 consecutive days (FAR Sec. 135.265(d)). At this time, without the specific facts being available to us, all we can say is that you have raised a valid question. If you want to give us the precise facts concerning what was required of the flight crewmember, we will be glad to give you an interpretation.
We trust that we have satisfactorily answered your questions.
This response has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service.
Sincerely,
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
cc:AGC-220/200

 

[notapilot]

Thanks. That about takes care of that. How is Flexjet getting away with this "rolling rest"?

 

[WabiSabi]

Inigo,

When is the rest requirement per the FAR? Before your duty day? Or after you duty off?

The first 10 hours of time off is not your required rest, the last 10 hours prior to your duty on is. If they have given you a duty on time of 10 am for example, they should not be calling you from midnight on. think about it. Mgmt banks on the fact that you will assume your 10 hours of required rest is the first 10 hours after you duty off, so they can use you again when their fires are burning. The FAR's clearly state that you must have 10 hours of rest PRIOR to starting duty, therefore the REQUIRED rest period is those last 10 hours before you duty on time, and you should accept no phone call or communication before then.

exactly! short and sweet. thank you. it's about looking back.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It does seem like we are blatantly violating the FARs. how is this being allowed? In my years at flex this has not really been addressed by management. have they ever come out and talked about it?

sincerely,

confused & restless

 

[gunfyter]

how is this being allowed?

Smokey the Bear use to say... "Only YOU can prevent forest fires."


Maybe only YOU can prevent Rolling Rest?

 

[gunfyter]

United States Court of Appeals
For the First Circuit


No. 99-1888

AVIATORS FOR SAFE AND FAIRER REGULATION, INC.,

Petitioner,

v.

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,

Respondent.


ON PETITION FOR REVIEW OF AN ORDER OF
THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION
http://www.law.emory.edu/1circuit/aug99/99-1888.01a.html​

 

[theskyking]

You guys have got yourselves a nice little Catch 22 there. If it is determined that the company is violating rest requirement, well you too, as PIC, are violating the same requirements.

You guys be careful out there. Tough rope to be walking trying to keep your company happy while being put in the position of possibly breaking regs. Sounds like you guys might want to take the steps Tom did and get a letter of clarification from someone higher up than your POI.

 

[gunfyter]

King,

It doesn't end with rolling rest. Late Pax cause you to go over 14 hrs? Sorry. FAA is not on board with that.

Even if the pax are on time and your trip is scheduled to be comleted @ 13:30 minutes when you taxi out. TEB tower tells you expect a 45 minute delay as you taxi towards the Hold Short line for takeoff....

You have to Return to the gate because now you cannot complete the flight in 14 hrs. Or get Dispatch to file you someplace else (Change Destination) you can reach in 14 hrs.... Crew change to complete the trip.

Yes I have the court documents for that too.

 

[Flex-ible]

??
The 1700 lcl rest began the night before all this took place. We were scheduled to come out of rest at 0930am the next morning. That was pushed back (floated) until that evening at 1800 lcl when all the fun began. If the original on duty time of 0930 would have stuck then would have been limited to duty stop time of 2330lcl the same day, not 0800am the following day which is what was presented once our duty start time was floated until 1800lcl.

Got it. I thought the big issue was with moving start times up - not back. I still think that is a bigger issue than this particular case.

 

[theskyking]

Gun

That scenario plays itself out in the 121 world all the time, too. So there is a lot of precedent set. I remember many a time out of ORD, when the line for TO was easily 100 planes long. You would hear guys telling tower that if they weren't wheels up by such and such time that they were heading back to the gate due to duty issues.

So, who do you want to fight in the long run, FJ management or the FAA? And if you choose to fight management, who is willing to step up to the plate first? Whoever it is had better document every conversation, save every email, and take lots of notes. Without a union to back you, you might be on your own trying to get your job back somewhere down the line.

Good luck.

 

[gunfyter]

King,

I nominate Iam3rd and some of the others who say they don't need/want a union.

They can do it on their own ... don't need a third party getting in the way. We union guys are weak and have to rely on a mob they say.

 

[gutshotdraw]

King,

It doesn't end with rolling rest. Late Pax cause you to go over 14 hrs? Sorry. FAA is not on board with that.

Even if the pax are on time and your trip is scheduled to be comleted @ 13:30 minutes when you taxi out. TEB tower tells you expect a 45 minute delay as you taxi towards the Hold Short line for takeoff....

You have to Return to the gate because now you cannot complete the flight in 14 hrs. Or get Dispatch to file you someplace else (Change Destination) you can reach in 14 hrs.... Crew change to complete the trip.

Yes I have the court documents for that too.

Our POI says late pax is a condition "beyond the control of the operator" and allows us to complete the flight even if it will exceed the 14 duty day. I don't agree with that because the Whitlow letter from FAA specifically deems late pax controllable by the operator. Regardless, that is what our management expects and demands. I'm guessing that will change sometime in the next three years

As for taxiing out legal and then getting a lineup at the runway that would put you over, that IS a condition beyond the control of the operator, specifically an ATC delay, and is specifically exempted from the 14 hour limit. They call it "legal to start, legal to finish." But if you launch, have a problem, and were over 14, FAA tags you with "careless and reckless." Once again, pilot stuck in the middle.

With regard to rolling rest, if they try to duty you on after 10 hours of rest but before the originally scheduled turn-on time, in our company it can ONLY be for Part 91 repositioning flights. You are NOT eligible to conduct a Program 91K or Part 135 flight until after you go back into rest for at least 10 hours. As for me, when my pager says turn-on at XX:XX, that is the end of my rest period. The FOM specifically says a crewmember cannot be required to receive contact for purposes of company operations during a rest period. Ergo, pager antenna off and phone in room no workie until duty-on time.

 

[gunfyter]

Two things....

1. POI's are not authorized to interpret the FARs. Only the FAA Chief Counsel may.


2. ATC delay that you learn of before crossing the Hold Short line is controllable by the operator. You can taxi back or change destination fro a crew swap.


I have the court documents and have posted them here or in the 135 charter section about 5 yrs ago I think.

Personally I am fine with going with an ATC delay if I feel I wont be fatigued.... I just don't want to be violated. But I am not sure that NJ or the POI who said its OK to do ... will stand up for me.

 

[gunfyter]

Blasts from the past

Duty and Rest:

Response Time


Legal to Start legal to Finish?

Flexjet info...

 

[gunfyter]

For GutShot:

A. FAA's Interpretation of FAR 121.471​

Because the Whitlow Letter7 constitutes the FAA's inter-​

pretation of its own regulation, that interpretation must be​

afforded substantial deference and upheld unless "plainly​

erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation." Thomas Jef-​

ferson Univ. v. Shalala, 512 U.S. 504, 512 (1994); see also​

__________​

5 If the flight is away from the gate but not yet in the air, the ​

flight may not take off. As a matter of enforcement policy, the ​

FAA will not charge a violation of the rest requirements if a delay ​

that first becomes known after the flight is in the air disrupts the ​

scheduled flight time, provided the required minimum reduced rest ​

and the compensatory rest occur at the completion of that flight ​

segment. See Whitlow Letter at 4.​

<...>​

The FAA responds that the phrase "scheduled completion​

of any flight segment" can reasonably be understood to​

include a re-scheduled flight time based on actual flight​

conditions. To be sure, "scheduled completion" can be con-​

strued narrowly to refer only to the originally scheduled​

flight completion time. The point, however, is that the FAA's​

more expansive interpretation is not unreasonable. A re-​

scheduled completion of a flight segment based on flight​

conditions existing in fact is nonetheless a "scheduled" com-​

pletion. Nothing in the text of FAR 121.471 or in the​

ordinary usage of the word "scheduled"8 dictates that the​

timetable of a particular flight segment can be determined​

only when the schedule is originally created regardless of​

adjustments made necessary by then-current conditions.​

============================​

1 The flight time limitation rules applicable to "major scheduled​

air carriers" and "other airlines operating large transport category​

airplanes" are contained in Part 121 of the FAR. The flight time​

limitation rules applicable to scheduled air carriers operating air-​

planes of 30 or fewer seats and air taxi operations are contained in​

Part 135 of the FAR. The substance of the rules in Parts 121 and ​

135 is essentially the same and the rules are likewise interpreted.​

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/commo...5/01-1027a.txt​

 

[ProFracPilot]

If the flight is away from the gate but not yet in the air, the

flight may not take off. As a matter of enforcement policy, the FAA will not charge a violation of the rest requirements if a delay that first becomes known after the flight is in the air disrupts the scheduled flight time, provided the required minimum reduced rest and the compensatory rest occur at the completion of that flight segment. See Whitlow Letter at 4.​

<...>​

The FAA responds that the phrase "scheduled completion of any flight segment" can reasonably be understood to include a re-scheduled flight time based on actual flight conditions. To be sure, "scheduled completion" can be con-strued narrowly to refer only to the originally scheduled flight completion time. The point, however, is that the FAA's more expansive interpretation is not unreasonable. A re-scheduled completion of a flight segment based on flight conditions existing in fact is nonetheless a "scheduled" completion. Nothing in the text of FAR 121.471 or in the ordinary usage of the word "scheduled"8 dictates that the timetable of a particular flight segment can be determined only when the schedule is originally created regardless of adjustments made necessary by then-current conditions.​

============================​

1 The flight time limitation rules applicable to "major scheduled air carriers" and "other airlines operating large transport category airplanes" are contained in Part 121 of the FAR. The flight time limitation rules applicable to scheduled air carriers operating air-planes of 30 or fewer seats and air taxi operations are contained in Part 135 of the FAR. The substance of the rules in Parts 121 and 135 is essentially the same and the rules are likewise interpreted.​

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/commo...5/01-1027a.txt ​

Careful. It appears that you're mixing FLIGHT TIME into a DUTY TIME and REQUIRED REST discussion. Or am I missing something here?

When the term "compensatory rest" comes into play, this refers only to exceeding FLIGHT TIME limitations. There are no FAR requirements (that I'm aware of) for compensatory rest for exceeding 14 hours of duty beyond your last 10 hour rest period.

 

[gunfyter]

Pro,

You are making my job hard.

Here is the link to full text of Whitlow letter:
Full text of the letter dated November 20, 2000 from FAA Deputy Chief Counsel Whitlow

You will come to this conclusion:

If ... it is known or should be known that arrival based upon the actual expected flight time will not result in at least 10 hours of look-back rest, then the flight may not leave the gate. If the flight is away from the gate, but not yet in the air, then the flight may not take off.

No one should take my work for it.... If you are still not sure, write to:

Federal Aviation Administration
Office of the Chief Counsel, AGC-1
800 Independence Avenue
Washington, DC 20591​

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gun, just remember one thing: You go into a FSDO and ask 5 inspectors for an interpretation of an FAR and you'll get 6 answers. And that includes the Chief Counsel's office. The ones who REALLY make the rules are the NTSB Administrative Law judges who rule on appeals from either the FAA or the Airman as the case may be.

Our boss once stood in a recurrent and held up the FAR and said: "This is the guideline." Then he held up a sheaf of NTSB rulings and said: "These are the rules." I can't quote them or cite them for you, but they have NTSB rulings that company counsel believes back their interpretation. I just try to keep myself from ever finding out first-hand who's right, and who's grounded (with apologies to the Dread Pirate Roberts).

 

[gunfyter]

The FAA has in recent years asked for comments on this issue. In reading the request for comments you can sometimes see what the FAA is trying to go after. In this case it looks like they were trying make the 135 interpretation consistent with Whitlow.

Go to http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm and enter docket number 23438 for additional information.

135 Managements argument is that Whitlow only applies to 121 because 135.267d refers to the entire duty day where 121 refers to each flight segment.

A reasonable person would conclude this is a distinction without a difference when it comes to bent metal and/or broken bones.

But this is their justification for flying over 14 hrs that you will find if you read the comments in the docket above.
======================================

There has also been a 135 ARC working group ... of Managements trying to change 135 Rest rules to their favor. Google ... 135 ARC Duty and Rest.

Question. If time a pilot is waiting for a call to duty can be considered rest, Why is the industry fighting to change 135 Rest rules?