What has ALPA done for me lately?

[737 Pylt]

Hopefully the TWA lawsuit will help to accomplish this.

Kind of like the rjdc lawsuit?

737

 

[pylut]

Just ALPA? What about the APA and AMR?

The lawsuit is ongoing with alpa, not apa or amr.
course you already knew that, did you not?

 

[pylut]

The TWA lawsuit will go down in flames just like the RJDC lawsuit. And rightfully so.

perhaps...then a great wrong will not have been righted. I hope that is not the case.

Win or lose- alpo is a bloated bureaucracy which ignores the desires of the pilots it is supposed to represent. It has ceased to effectively represent it's membership and therefore it's demise will be welcome. The sooner alpa goes away the sooner it's void can be filled by a union worth a hoot.

 

[BeCareful!]

Win or lose- alpo is a bloated bureaucracy which ignores the desires of the pilots it is supposed to represent. It has ceased to effectively represent it's membership and therefore it's demise will be welcome. The sooner alpa goes away the sooner it's void can be filled by a union worth a hoot.

That is by and large the most truthful, accurate thing posted on FI.com in ages! Bravo!

Rez O, what I suggest is that ALPA officers of all grades start thinking about what they are going to do when the ALPA gravy train dries up. That's going to start with the removal of about $11,000,000 from the annual budget. Then, and more to the point, I suggest pilots at all airlines roll up their sleeves and begin the hard work of forming independent unions that are purpose-built to represent the pilots who pay for their services. (This is something that is clearly NOT happening anymore with ALPA.)

Dave Behnke (sp?) had a great idea, and ALPA has historically done a lot of good things. Everything runs its course, though, and that time has come.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

perhaps...then a great wrong will not have been righted. I hope that is not the case.

It was my understanding that the TWA suers also named AMR and APA. Do you have a link? or a reference?

Win or lose- alpo is a bloated bureaucracy which ignores the desires of the pilots it is supposed to represent. It has ceased to effectively represent it's membership and therefore it's demise will be welcome. The sooner alpa goes away the sooner it's void can be filled by a union worth a hoot.

It ignores the desires? What are those desires? cause when I was an ALPA rep I constantly asked my consituients what they wanted and got nothing.

LEC election particaption rates 30%
LEC meeting attendence rates 5%
Age 60 survey particaption 30%

The fact is pilots are extremely apathetic. As citizens of the greatest democratic society in the world, pilots are dismal failures... but don't worry most Americans are like this... pilots are nothing special...

That is by and large the most truthful, accurate thing posted on FI.com in ages! Bravo!

It is actually a quite common post.. respectfully it is ignorant and pessimistic..counter productive and self deafting...

Rez O, what I suggest is that ALPA officers of all grades start thinking about what they are going to do when the ALPA gravy train dries up.

What I suggest is pilots stop whining like school girls and man up. Find some character and integrity and actually become involved in thier careers. Most pilots don't even have the decency to take the ALPA tit out of thier mouth as they complain...

Pilots refuse to particapte in the political process that controls thier carriers yet they have so much time and energy to complain....

That's going to start with the removal of about $11,000,000 from the annual budget.

Funny stuff...

Then, and more to the point, I suggest pilots at all airlines roll up their sleeves and begin the hard work of forming independent unions that are purpose-built to represent the pilots who pay for their services. (This is something that is clearly NOT happening anymore with ALPA.)

More funny stuff... and I will tell you why... apathy. Pilots do not have the ability and organizational skills to get this done... Or instead of put a little energy into thier careers over the years.. they go apathetic and then cry wolf when thier expectations (that they never communicate) aren't met... Now..you got pilots going postal and ready to do massive changes..all while if they just gave a litle bit over the years it would never come to this...

In addition we need more unity not a bunch of Iraqi-like war tribes all fighting it out.

You just don't get it. ALPA is not regulatory. The laws favor management and gov't NOT unions.. so in order to get things done we must have strength in numbers....

The reason why ALPA is not as effective is because of guys like you, Joe Merchant, luckytohaveajob, A350, etc.. you get on the message boards and spread your discontent and pessimism.... how can we progress if guys are sandbagging.. We agree with the problems and we are trying to fix them...but you are not helping!!

Instead..why not get involved! Once you sit down and look at the problem and realize there are smart people trying to effect positive change it changes your whole prospective... IN OTHER WORDS.. once you understand it makes it allot easier to accept..

Also, ALPA pilots most often look at the problem form their own intrests. It doesn't work that way... we can duke it out behind closed doors, but sooner or later we need to come out unified as a team. Not 60,000 teams... but one.

Dave Behnke (sp?) had a great idea, and ALPA has historically done a lot of good things. Everything runs its course, though, and that time has come.

all you are doing is recalling your own innocent and idealistic hopes for your airline career.. that ALPA was going tomake everything great like the good ol' days... Not much has really changed.. certianly not human nature... Check this out... pilot apathy was alive and well in the 1950's...

From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.
​

And guys will get on here are argue my point.. but they will never really say that apathy is good. And that non particaption is the way to go...

They will argue everything that they cannot control.. they don't want to talk about thier repsonsibilities.. oh no... because if they did then they would actually have to TAKE responsibility...

Nope.. guys just want to pay thier 1.95% and go about thier lives and keep living unrealisitc expectations... nothing new here... move along... nothing to see...

 

[PinnacleDude]

Rez,

That is an excellent post.

PDude

 

[BeCareful!]

I guess in your world, Rez, every pilot would be an ALPA volunteer of some sort, eh? Everyone would show up at every meeting, etc. And you accuse me of writing funny stuff.

You've done the typical Internet thing and assumed far too much about others by reading too much into a post. I've been far more involved with ALPA than the average line pilot over the years....not at all the apathetic pilot you describe. You say I "just don't get it." What an arrogant little quip that is. Eff You! You have no idea.

It's because of what I've witnessed over the past 16 years that I'm taking a role in trying to rid my airline of ALPA! And rhetoric like yours only fuels my fire. Keep it up; maybe you should contact Prater for some tips on how to drive pilots away from ALPA. In all honesty, he's a little better at it than you are.

 

[pylut]

It was my understanding that the TWA suers also named AMR and APA. Do you have a link? or a reference?

The ongoing TWA-alpa lawsuit is just alpa.
Ask your buddies in the alpa klan about the status. Course they might be too busy shredding boxes of evidence they were required to present....the judge loved that one.

It ignores the desires? What are those desires? cause when I was an ALPA rep I constantly asked my consituients what they wanted and got nothing.

LEC election particaption rates 30%
LEC meeting attendence rates 5%
Age 60 survey particaption 30%

Why would more want to participate. what did alpo do with the opinions of the 30% that participated in the age 60 survey? Threw their opinions right out the window. But we want more participation right? ya that's the way to promote that. How many of those 30% do you think will be inclined to participate next time?

The fact is pilots are extremely apathetic. As citizens of the greatest democratic society in the world, pilots are dismal failures... but don't worry most Americans are like this... pilots are nothing special...

That pretty much sums you up....you are alpa


It is actually a quite common post.. respectfully it is ignorant and pessimistic..counter productive and self deafting...



What I suggest is pilots stop whining like school girls and man up. Find some character and integrity and actually become involved in thier careers. Most pilots don't even have the decency to take the ALPA tit out of thier mouth as they complain...

Pilots refuse to particapte in the political process that controls thier carriers yet they have so much time and energy to complain....




Funny stuff...




More funny stuff... and I will tell you why... apathy. Pilots do not have the ability and organizational skills to get this done... Or instead of put a little energy into thier careers over the years.. they go apathetic and then cry wolf when thier expectations (that they never communicate) aren't met... Now..you got pilots going postal and ready to do massive changes..all while if they just gave a litle bit over the years it would never come to this...

In addition we need more unity not a bunch of Iraqi-like war tribes all fighting it out.

You just don't get it. ALPA is not regulatory. The laws favor management and gov't NOT unions.. so in order to get things done we must have strength in numbers....

The reason why ALPA is not as effective is because of guys like you, Joe Merchant, luckytohaveajob, A350, etc.. you get on the message boards and spread your discontent and pessimism.... how can we progress if guys are sandbagging.. We agree with the problems and we are trying to fix them...but you are not helping!!

Instead..why not get involved! Once you sit down and look at the problem and realize there are smart people trying to effect positive change it changes your whole prospective... IN OTHER WORDS.. once you understand it makes it allot easier to accept..

Also, ALPA pilots most often look at the problem form their own intrests. It doesn't work that way... we can duke it out behind closed doors, but sooner or later we need to come out unified as a team. Not 60,000 teams... but one.

I agree, alpa has run it's course. Time for a new oranization to step forward and succeed. The sooner alpa finishes it's death throes the better. alpo has become more concerned with preserving it's own organization then representing it's constituents.

all you are doing is recalling your own innocent and idealistic hopes for your airline career.. that ALPA was going tomake everything great like the good ol' days... Not much has really changed.. certianly not human nature... Check this out... pilot apathy was alive and well in the 1950's...

From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227: ​

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline. ​

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.​

And guys will get on here are argue my point.. but they will never really say that apathy is good. And that non particaption is the way to go...
Non participation is the way to go! I will never participate in the alpo facade. Having viewed the corruption 1st hand in the treatment of the TWA pilots I could never respect or belong to such a putrid bureaucracy.
They will argue everything that they cannot control.. they don't want to talk about thier repsonsibilities.. oh no... because if they did then they would actually have to TAKE responsibility...

Nope.. guys just want to pay thier 1.95% and go about thier lives and keep living unrealisitc expectations... nothing new here... move along... nothing to see...

There was a time when alpa had a positive impact and honor. That time has long passed. The sooner it dies the better. Get involved you say? I AM. I am personally supporting efforts which I hope will at least financially weaken this sad excuse for a union.

When faced with a chance to do the right thing by the TWA pilots alpo chose instead to actively recruit the apa members rather than represent the interests of their longstanding members. why? simple, $

 

[ironspud]

The TWA lawsuit will go down in flames just like the RJDC lawsuit. And rightfully so.

.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The ongoing TWA-alpa lawsuit is just alpa.
Ask your buddies in the alpa klan about the status. Course they might be too busy shredding boxes of evidence they were required to present....the judge loved that one.

Need references.. the personal opinoon of a jaded member is interesting....but...

What is the basis of the TWA lawsuit?

Here is a doc showing TWA pilots sueing the APA
http://twapilots-vs-alpa.com/downloads/twapilotstranscriptordertoshow020905.pdf

and another showing TWA pilots sueing the APA, ALPA adn AMR IN THAT ORDER..

Why would more want to participate. what did alpo do with the opinions of the 30% that participated in the age 60 survey? Threw their opinions right out the window. But we want more participation right? ya that's the way to promote that. How many of those 30% do you think will be inclined to participate next time?

That is it.... refuse to particapte...pack up your marbles and go home.. that is the American way...

That pretty much somes you up....you are alpa

You..me..us.. them...

I agree, alpa has run it's course. Time for a new oranization to step forward and succeed. The sooner alpa finishes it's death throes the better. alpo has become more concerned with preserving it's own organization then representing it's constituents.

sounds like you are calling for revolution.. a coup perhaps... just sit back and relax... we'll call you when its over.. all while ensuring that all the changes meet your individualized and custom needs...

Non participation is the way to go! I will never participate in the alpo facade. Having viewed the corruption 1st hand in the treatment of the TWA pilots I could never respect or belong to such a putrid bureaucracy.

You have to respect yourself before you can respect anyone or thing...

There was a time when alpa had a positive impact and honor. That time has long passed.

When was that? can you provide a time frame? And what did ALPA do specifically for that honor?

The sooner it dies the better. Get involved you say? I AM. I am personally supporting efforts which I hope will at least financially weaken this sad excuse for a union.

First you say don't particapte then you say you are involved...

When faced with a chance to do the right thing by the TWA pilots alpo chose instead to actively recruit the apa members rather than represent the interests of their longstanding members. why? simple, $

Don't forget the APA and AMR....

 

[pylut]

wow Rez, I think you are finally losing it. Usually your posts are coherent. Sad misguided rah rah propaganda for alpa, but coherent.

I think your reading comprehension is lacking. Once again, I am not nor will I ever participate in alpo again. Read this next part slowly and I'll use small words for you....
This however does not mean that I will not participate in anything else...I will gladly participate in alpas demise, extinction and financial ruin.

You have to respect yourself before you can respect anyone or thing...

interesting tangent here, you sound a little bit like a fortune cookie. respect and honor are exactly the reasons I will not support alpo.

educate yourself on the lawsuit, it's not my job to. Again I say to you the ongoing lawsuit is with alpa.

Interesting you keep bringing up apa and amr. You do like to try to divert all responsibility from alpa don't you? alpa had obligations to the TWA pilot force that amr and apa did not. think on that.

I know I know, same old Rez song, it's not alpa's fault, they have no responsibility it is the fault of the pilots, the members etc etc.

 

[likeitis]

ALPA will cease to be when age 65 passes. The lawsuits coming for misrepresentation of the majority will be dumbfounding. The day a pilot flies past 60 will be the day they are put on my "no fly list." Not a safe working environment for me to be flying with someone who is taking money and time away from my family. Until an agreement on how these windfall winning pilots are going to make those affected by their decision whole, I will continue to press others to do the same.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

wow Rez, I think you are finally losing it. Usually your posts are coherent. Sad misguided rah rah propaganda for alpa, but coherent.

I think your reading comprehension is lacking. Once again, I am not nor will I ever participate in alpo again. Read this next part slowly and I'll use small words for you....

This however does not mean that I will not participate in anything else...I will gladly participate in alpas demise, extinction and financial ruin.

because ALPA is repsonsibile for your demise, extinction and financial ruin...???

interesting tangent here, you sound a little bit like a fortune cookie. respect and honor are exactly the reasons I will not support alpo.

educate yourself on the lawsuit, it's not my job to. Again I say to you the ongoing lawsuit is with alpa.

Looks like I educated you on it. AMR and APA and named... Like any good lawyer... there will throw all on the wall to see what sticks...

Interesting you keep bringing up apa and amr. You do like to try to divert all responsibility from alpa don't you? alpa had obligations to the TWA pilot force that amr and apa did not. think on that.

Interesting that you never bring AMR and the APA.. yet they are really the ones that screwed you over..

But you had expectations that ALPA was your shining white knight... and you feel silly for believing that and now you are angry.. and it has to be someones fault...cause it sure has hel! ain't yours...

I know I know, same old Rez song, it's not alpa's fault, they have no responsibility it is the fault of the pilots, the members etc etc.

ALPA has been woring in the past and will be again.. it is an organization made up of people... if ALPA is at fault then what about you? or are perfect.. faultless... run your lawsuit and we will see what happens...

But when you run your bitter vitrol just ensure that you include AMR and APA....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA will cease to be when age 65 passes. The lawsuits coming for misrepresentation of the majority will be dumbfounding.

On what basis?

The day a pilot flies past 60 will be the day they are put on my "no fly list."

There are already ALPA pilots flying in the USA over age 60.

Not a safe working environment for me to be flying with someone who is taking money and time away from my family. Until an agreement on how these windfall winning pilots are going to make those affected by their decision whole, I will continue to press others to do the same.

good luck!

 

[PHXFLYR]

What do you suggest?

Why Rez ,haven't you heard ? Our little 10,000 hour buddy and his friends have this bright new shiny union called USAPA. There gonna do all the things ALPA couldn't do right all those years. They're going to fight Cabotage,restore the lost pensions ,restore payrates to where they were prior to Sept 2001 not to mention offer all the services that ALPA has offered for years .Loss of License Insurance,ALPA Aeromedical and a voice on Capitol Hill. But here's my favorite part ,Rez . I'm gonna get all this for less than I'm paying for the ALPA representation I'm getting now. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Where do I sign?


PHXFLYR

 

[PCL_128]

Why Rez ,haven't you heard ? Our little 10,000 hour buddy and his friends have this bright new shiny union called USAPA. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Where do I sign?


PHXFLYR

Isn't it interesting how these clowns have been claiming for weeks and weeks that they already have an overwhelming majority of the pilots' signed cards, but still haven't filed for a vote with the NMB? Seems to me like the USAPA jokesters don't have the support that they claim.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I don't know whether they do have the required number of cards or whether they don't. My guess is that they do but they don't have the "balz" to take the next step. You know,at some sick level,I hope this recall comes to fruition and those idiots are sucessful. This way I'll have a continuous source of amusement for the remainder of my career listening to all those easties moan and groan when their "new and improved union " fails to deliver all that they promised,and in many cases deliver even less



PHXFLYR

 

[FDJ2]

I don't know whether they do have the required number of cards or whether they don't. My guess is that they do but they don't have the "balz" to take the next step.
PHXFLYR

You might be right on that summation.

It's easy to point to what's gone wrong or what expectations have not been met, It's a whole different ball game to actually do something about it.

Perhaps they are beginning to realize their limitations and the fact that they can't deliver on their promise to vacate the Nicolau decision, which would be binding on USAPA, or deliver the utopian pilot career, with no set backs and no economic realities.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I guess in your world, Rez, every pilot would be an ALPA volunteer of some sort, eh? Everyone would show up at every meeting, etc.

They should try.

Or, at a minimum, support those that are doing something.

You've done the typical Internet thing and assumed far too much about others by reading too much into a post.

You haven't given him much to work with. You post like a pathetic whiner. Maybe you aren't, maybe you're just a loser who needs to blame someone, ANYONE for your lot in life.

You've chosen to blame ALPA, which ironically, is YOU!

I've been far more involved with ALPA than the average line pilot over the years....not at all the apathetic pilot you describe.

Wow! Then it truly is all your fault!

You say I "just don't get it." What an arrogant little quip that is. Eff You! You have no idea.

People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it. Go back to your Laverne & Shirley re-runs and leave the heavy-lifting to those wiling to grab a rifle and stand a post.

It's because of what I've witnessed over the past 16 years that I'm taking a role in trying to rid my airline of ALPA!

And replace it with what?

Is your spiffy new union going to be run by aliens from Cigna-7...or from pilots at your airline?

'Cuz if the leadership of your cool new union comes from your own pilot group, you should be smart enough to understand:

1. The guys that step up didn't step up before. Where were these "saviors" during the last election cycle?

2. A new union will not eliminate the divisions within your group...it'll just mean you have other structural differences to fret while you're trying to bridge those differences.

You'll still be pi$$ed. Whiners always are.

 

[stlflyguy]

because ALPA is repsonsibile for your demise, extinction and financial ruin...???





Looks like I educated you on it. AMR and APA and named... Like any good lawyer... there will throw all on the wall to see what sticks...



Interesting that you never bring AMR and the APA.. yet they are really the ones that screwed you over..

But you had expectations that ALPA was your shining white knight... and you feel silly for believing that and now you are angry.. and it has to be someones fault...cause it sure has hel! ain't yours...



ALPA has been woring in the past and will be again.. it is an organization made up of people... if ALPA is at fault then what about you? or are perfect.. faultless... run your lawsuit and we will see what happens...

But when you run your bitter vitrol just ensure that you include AMR and APA....

Rez, you're getting too predictable.

The appeals court said the TWA pilots did indeed have an issue with ALPA. ALPA has failed to get the case dismissed and is now backed into a corner. Go ahead, Rez, ask the ALPA attorneys if they'll be able to escape this one. But you won't. You're predictable.

Remember that TWA WASN'T in bankruptcy prior to AMR's arrival but filed it as a condition of sale. Hey Rez, ALPA still works against the TWA pilots to this day by trying to insert the Eagle pilots ahead of them on the AA recall list. They aren't even ON the recall list yet they're fighting to flow while there are others furloughed.

You just don't get it...AMR and APA screwed over the TWA pilots because ALPA let them. The motive(s) is (are) obvious.


stlflyguy