NO please at Tranny!!

[Lear70]

Does any one know how many pilots we have lost recently? And does anyone know how to spell recently? The latest seniority list still shows 5 guys I know who have quit. 1 was still on IOE, another just finished IOE, another hired Mar06, and the rest less than 1 year. Will history repeat itself and AAI require sign on contracts just to attract enough pilots to fill a class or will they just agree we are special and give us a contract?

Good questions.

The NPA knows, it's part of the dues checkoff requirement... they have to know who to take off the list.

I wouldn't imagine the people maintaining that list for us are too concerned about its accuracy for US. I'm sure the number of people leaving has jumped, and will only go up as NWA and UAL start actually conducting classes.

SWA might even out those attrition rates, at least for a while, as they are slowing their growth, but they have several hundred in the pool, including Hobday and some others here who will leave when their number comes up.

Signing contract? I doubt it. Signing bonus, maybe. (yeah, right). When the well spring of talent dries up, they'll just expand their "minimums" and attract lower-time RJ guys who can't *quite* get on with the majors yet. Would be a short-sighted move to leave before they got 1,000 PIC 121 but it would ensure they stay here for several years as they wouldn't be marketable elsewhere.

 

[PCL_128]

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Several of those legacy ALPA carriers ended up with snapback clauses (DAL pilots get up to 6% annual raises if the company is profitable) and bankruptcy claims (senior DAL pilots got a $400k check) through the negotiating process during their bankruptcies. Do you think the NPA could have achieved the same result? If you do, then you haven't been paying very close attention. No union can prevent concessions while in bankruptcy, but the right union can provide resources and experience that allow you to minimize the damage.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

Bulls#&%. The strength of the membership is certainly important, but what happens behind closed doors during negotiations is highly dependant on those fancy lawyers and the experience of the negotiators and advisors that you have available.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

That's a vast oversimplification of a very complicated process. How 'bout things like scope and R & I? You think any old Joe can negotiate these complicated sections? ALPA has attorneys that specialize in these matters that can help write the language. What do we have? Skipper. We have the help of Seth, but he's just a single attorney that doesn't specialize in every area that is needed during a complicated negotiating process.

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

I've got 5 years of union work under my belt, so I think I've got a little bit of credibility when I talk about the NPA and unions in general. But I agree with you that we need the right people to step up to the plate and do the job.

 

[DougCorp-9]

The new TA is on the NPA website. Get to work Lear.

 

[Lear70]

Dang, you're fast.

I checked the website an hour ago and it wasn't up yet.

Shouldn't take too long, I don't think they've messed with too much but I'll have to double-check. I really wish they would post the copy that we used for negotiations - it has changes in red and highlight bars on the sides to show you exactly what changed and where.

 

[Lear70]

1st thing that I checked was the pay rate reductions per hour we gave back to get back core block.

An average of $1.70 per hour less for the CA's in every year and longevity scale, an average of $0.50 cents an hour less for the F/O's, or about 1-1.5% of the total hourly rates.

One of our guys put together an excellent table that shows what our pay rates for every year for both seats should be adjusted for COLA. I'll post it later alongside the current rates and proposed rates and probably put it in a graph so you can see how close the proposed rates are to baseline COLA off our current wages.

Have other stuff to do today, will work on this more this afternoon...

 

[gearup5]

Still Voting NO!
Scope 86 seats 114,000 lbs up to 25 aircraft. That is 250 pilots(a year of hiring)
Recall these retards.
P.S.
Sabby is not better than Surapine. He was in the crew lounge last night yakking. He is full of Sh*&%^ to.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

1st thing that I checked was the pay rate reductions per hour we gave back to get back core block.

Why give anything back? Yet another negotiating team that believes that under RLA negotiations, you have to give up something in order to obtain something. Unbelieveable.

Some other poster made the point that you need a big union, big name lawyers, professional negotiators etc. to get a good contract. You know as well as I that there have been some great contracts negotiated by pilots, and some real turds conjured up by supposed "professional" negotiators. You have guys with many many years in this business at Tranny. I'm sure you have more than enough talent to come up with a negotiating team that knows the ins and outs of contractual language.

Before you ask why uncle Frank has an interest in your TA, think about the current state of pattern bargaining and the implications of your contract on the rest of the industry.

Do you think I want our management presenting your CRAPPY contract in front of our negotiators as industry standard or what we have to compete with?

RAISE THE FRIGGIN BAR!

You raise it, everyone will follow and trump it. Then no management team will be able to whine about some other airline's supposed "competitive advantage."

Get with the program. Joe CAN afford to pay you well, and give you a great QOL. It is his job to manage the airline, not yours.

 

[mnboyev]

Why couldnt they negotiate brake release... not gns movement ? Why giveback to get core credit and min day? He11 we already are relaxing reserve, insurance, FO rates, Per Diem, Training, Retirement.. WTFO... ? Last and final offer? Please........

What gains did we get in QOL.... nothing that I can tell.....this all bums me out fellas... Pay is good here as a left seater.. and will get better I hope. (not so good for FO's)... and its gonna get tougher for FO's with upgrade times slowly increasing.

We're gettin rid of 25 dollar JS crap...a small payraise.... and your gonna work your arse off.... HMM sounds great...

Thanks NWA for the great contract that we have to fight against... Way to set the bar high... No ALPA... No fricn way.. I agree with Lorenzo .... did I really say that? Hard work and solidarity... only answer to our little problem...

Gotta go look at the POS.... later.... I wanted to go fishin... now I gotta spend time again on the Union site...... childish at best....

 

[Lear70]

OK, folks... newest update on my web page.

Rebuttal Bulletpoints #2 as well as a detailed graph presentation of the new pay rates as compared to CPI (Consumer Price Index increase - inflation), and industry average Small Narrow Body "major" airlines' pay rates.

 

[Diesel-9]

Mny Boy. You need to look at some history. Where and when the contracts all slid down to your levels. Take some responsibility supporting your world. How about CAL Ch-11's and work rules destroyed and they still haven't repaired them. UAL, AAA suffering thru Ch-11. AMR caved after a 10 minutes of talks and gave-gave-gave. At that time I then made $191 an hour on the DC-9, more than an AMR 777 Capt. Hard to stand up to all that. Ugly cycle downwards for a long time. With Katrina, jet fuel $140+ and all the above, NWA/DAL joined the party. Considering Ch-11 world, saved many work rule numbers from falling to UAL/AAA/CAL levels with duty rigs/ave. day etc. The majors are on the upswing as in the past and now the LCC's are hitting the wall. Good luck in your fight. Cobra Air has had more strikes than most others combined and done more than their part in the past.

 

[Max Powers]

The majors are on the upswing as in the past and now the LCC's are hitting the wall. Good luck in your fight. Cobra Air has had more strikes than most others combined and done more than their part in the past.

Yea you go NWA real upswing replace 60% of your DC-9 with Emb-170's and CRJ-900's flown by another company. YeeeehAAAAA man. You do have a dozen 787 coming but flown at pay rates lower than AirTran's new TA. Heck of a deal.

 

[mnboyev]

Respectfully Diesel....Not sure what you mean by "responsibility"? 10 Yr Tranny Cappy proposed TA rates : 149 bucks... Hey.. not really bitchin bout the rates..(Always can be higher, right?) its all the other nickel dime crap... How bout them 5 day trips that my buds at Red Rudder fly... sounds great... I never fly 5 day trips (except for monthly integration) How bout that average day? Per Diem ? All the same garbage getting handed to us... And we all know where Management is getting it from... Your little CBA thats in effect till 2011.. And what is worse ... Our Union and some fella named Seth thinks we should endorse the TA.. no wait the LFO... no wait TA2 !!!

Yeah jet fuel prices suck... no doubt.. everyone deals with that across the industry...(except lofty SWA) That's managements job to handle that, not the pilots. Yeah AA caved to continue to dominate the world. But as I recall, the APA fellas are asking for big returns for remaining outside of the Bunkruptcy Club?... And I believe they will probably gain respectable ground as the industry recovers.

Not willing to give up my QOL... NWA caved to save your retirement.. that is obvious..maybe 'caved' is the wrong word..held to the fire ...whatever... we dont have a pension just a 10.5 DC. Heck.. wish I had a pension... well, I take that back.. maybe not ... lol

The low Fare crowd... which I guess I am included in... is a farce... wanna see who has the lowest fares to any city? Check out Kayak . com... This is top secret... but AirTran is rarely the lowest fare !!!.... shhhh..... It is Delta and NWA .... Hmmm... Funding NWA's turf war with the employees pockets... get my drift. Reducing aircraft and employing 300 hr wonders from Riddle and NDSU in RJ's and Saab's... Had a new hire ASA on the jumpseat.. nice kid... litterally 500 hrs? Are you not parking 70 of the ol 9's ?

I think when I got hired at Eagle back in 94 I had 1600... WTFO.. Most did their 2-5 years got some PIC and off you went to the real job... right?? How's that for history... Well not the case !... Kids are spending 8-10 yrs and some 'kids' are leaving the industry due to pay and work rules... article in the star last week... check it out.... cant blame em..??

Sorry for my ramble.. My point is that pilots of ALL carriers need to support one another and continue to push for work rules that support our families and contribute to respectable home life. We want Pilots to continue to be assets and leaders in our communities.. Seek to maintain high standards .... Dont let our profession and pay dwindle to 5 Day trips.. 2 days off and back on for 5 !!!! Average day.. Extended Duty.. Reduced Pay.. Increased Scope Flexibility.. all bad... very very bad !!

Thanks... respectfully... MNBOY.... ex NWA Maint fella 021300

 

[PCL_128]

Our Union and some fella named Seth thinks we should endorse the TA.. no wait the LFO... no wait TA2 !!!

That is not what Seth said. The message from Seth in the latest mailing from the NPA was just his summary of the possible consequences of rejecting the TA. Based on his dealings with the NPA leadership, he is probably under the assumption that this pilot group isn't informed and educated on this process, and isn't ready to go all the way for this contract. Seth was not endorsing this TA at all.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Seth was not endorsing this TA at all.

And I am not endorsing it either. How long until I get to vote


NO

again? My answer is no until we see pay raises with no concessions.

 

[wood pecker]

I will go for the chance to go on strike and then lose my job since AAI has no cash just like the letter said that I got today. I am glad they did not get Midwest since AAI has no cash. That would have been embarassing, AAI wins the $450mil bid for MEH but they really have no money so the deal is off.