NO please at Tranny!!

[Frank Lorenzo]

Instructor Dude?

Low paid whore?

 

[Kharma Police]

Low paid whore?

You or me?

 

[wood pecker]

Hey BR,
I can not access the new TA, are you reading that we are keeping the current work rules plus pay raises? Either I mis-understood your post or you wrote you might consider voting yes. You might be senior enough but the unlimited turboprop clause/RJs is a no for me and other junior FOs and the losing all credit on reserves.

 

[Lear70]

To me industry standard is ok with me. The FO's are getting a raise of 10 dollars a year,

Hey, I know who you are... don't make me come smack you.

Seriously, the new F/O rates are NOT industry standard. They're about 10-15% UNDER industry standard AT DATE OF SIGNING!

So, based on your quote above, you're prepared to vote No, correct? Since you need "industry standard" pay rates to vote yes and THIS IS NOT IT...

If everyone is getting a raise and keeping the same work rules we have now then I think it is in our best interest to see the company continue to grow and get more aircraft.

We're NOT keeping the same work rules we have now... did you MISS the rebuttal bulletpoints? There's STILL concessions in almost EVERY section:

1. Scope - concessions
2. Jumpseat letter - no permanent language
4. Pay - many of the increases AREN'T EVEN COST OF LIVING RAISES! Oh yeah, loss of Door close is a concession.
5. Scheduling - Reserve Towme Grievance Pay giveback, ready reserve all the dang time, including at outstations with very little extra pay for doing it. Concession in late return to domicile language. Loss of window/aisle seat for deadheading. The list goes on and on.
12. Insurance concessions allowing increases in both premiums AND co-pays that are higher than current book. NO ONE will EVER be able to elect into Platinum PPO again.
13. Grievance concessions that allow the company to miss a deadline with no penalty but if WE miss one, the company wins automatically. Allowances for any grievance committee member to kill your grievance before it even goes to System Board and you have NO recourse.
14. Training concessionary language further allowing company more leeway in terminating someone who fails ANY 3 events over their ENTIRE CAREER.
18. Furlough and Recall concessionary language allowing company to furlough us if another group goes on strike and we lose 30 day notice or pay in lieu of.
20. Hotels. Stayed in Dallas lately? Expect these kinds of hotels to become MORE prolific, not less, with the loopholes in the "new and improved" hotel section. ALL the language is ambiguous and gives us NO power to change anything.

These are ALL concessions from current book. So, you're not going to consider voting yes anymore, are you?

Considering voting for it.

I imagine, after the above, you might want to reconsider that... It's highly concessionary and the pay increases are just BARELY COLA.

Like others have mentioned, the company has BRILLIANTLY manipulated the NPA BoD (you know who I'm talking about) into thinking that the "tweaking" done to the T.A. actually brings us BACK to current book, when it's NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Yes to recall. Yes to recall. NO to the T.A. Start over again with current book and pay rates equivalent to ALL Major carriers, including Purple and Brown as a STARTING POINT.

Some people evidently missed Negotiations 101.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Yes to recall. Yes to recall. NO to the T.A. Start over again with current book and pay rates equivalent to ALL Major carriers, including Purple and Brown as a STARTING POINT.

Some people evidently missed Negotiations 101.

[/Lorenzo OFF]

You are getting warmer.

How about this - start with Purple & Brown +30% as a STARTING POINT. Bargain down from there.

Why start where the others are today, then give the IDIOTS running your union the opportunity to bargain down to where you are now?

What good is pattern bargaining to the rest of us if you are not willing to raise the bar?

Come on guys. Don't disappoint.

[Lorenzo ON]

Executive bonuses.... yipeeee!!!!

 

[BR715]

Allow me to reply. Lear 70 you make many good points, and I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. I will reconsider my vote and have done so before I made my previous post. However there are many things that people are failing to realize.

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

 

[maxblast72]

You can bet your @ss that Alaska is watching our negotiations very, very close... Remember, they used to make $104/hr third year at Alaska, now its $73/hr.. I really don't see why AAI can't pay FO's around $75/hr for third year pay, topping out around $80/hr.. BTW, that is still below industry average..... The fast upgrades are going away.. Guys can plan on seing upgrade go to 4, 5, or most likely even 6 years.... So, the fast upgrade excuse doesn't work anymore... ..

According to airlinepilotcentral.com, Alaska most junior captain was hired in 2000, which puts them at 7 year upgrade. With their 737 replacing MD-80's and the age 65 rule close, I don't see upgrades getting any sooner at Alaska. Our upgrades are at 3 years right now but will come up to 4 or 5 years soon. I think a guy hired in 2004 or 2005 at Airtran has alot higher expectations than a guy hired at Alaska. That is the gamble you take staying at Airtran. I don't think the grass is that much greener anywhere else, and have no problem with guys not happy with Airtran leaving (4 days trips are much more enjoyable with happy people).

That being said, I still don't understand why we have a 15 year pay scale in the TA when that money could have been used to increase the FO's pay instead of increasing our the pay of our 180K senior CA's to 200K.

 

[Lear70]

Allow me to reply. Lear 70 you make many good points, and I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

Glad you're at least listening to both sides of the puzzle. A lot of people take one side or the other and don't ever keep an open mind. Thank you for doing so.

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

That's somewhat true. That is why we need leadership that has experience with other unions as well and yes, I'm talking about ALPA experience.

We don't have to BE an ALPA carrier to actually take advantage of some of their resources. AP and group have purchased those resources, but are not using them for their full potential.

So, I therefore believe that with the RIGHT leadership in place, the result CAN and WILL be different. I understand, however, your belief that it won't be, based on your experience here. It has been and continues to be very frustrating.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

These two go hand-in-hand, simply because I want to take the chance to point out that these two are not mutually exclusive items.

For instance, what good would an extra $500 a month for 12 months (F/O raises) do you if the company chose to defer 737 deliveries again and started running outsourced 100-seat Embraers in an 86-seat configuration (business/coach combination), thus delaying your upgrade by a year?

Is a year of CA pay worth a $6,000 loss in income for another year of negotiations to get our Scope back? I think so...

All the sections in the contract work together to give the company a combined dollar amount of savings that offsets quite a bit of the salary increases. It may take another year to get a decent T.A., but it will be COMPLETELY worth it if we fix the problems along with salaries that make this airline the career stop we all came here for.

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

I actually blame both. The company shouldn't be trying to take advantage of us in the manner they are, and I believe they're alienating their workforce by doing so, much to their own detriment which will only be obvious later in the game.

The NPA leadership has simply been outmatched by Kolski and team and refuses to acknowledge that loss and resign to make way for people who are willing to fight the hard fight.

That being said, I still don't understand why we have a 15 year pay scale in the TA when that money could have been used to increase the FO's pay instead of increasing our the pay of our 180K senior CA's to 200K.

I don't mind a 15-year pay scale, although I think those rates could have been spread more evenly by year 12 CA. The CA's at this airline deserve that kind of pay, no doubt about it.

The F/O's should have been brought up CONSIDERABLY more than they did. I don't buy off on the old "the pie is only so big, how do you want to divide it out?" argument.

If there's not enough pie to go around, time for management to bake a bigger pie with the profits they've been raking in.

 

[gt1900]

Max... You have a point... But, what about a guy hired 2 months ago? Is their career expectations really any differenct than an Alaska pilot, or SWA pilot??? NO, AAI doesn't have enough planes on order for the guys coming on line to ever upgrade.. You said that 4 day trips are much better with people that are happy.. BUT, aren't they much better with people who are competant as well? When AAI's upgrade jumps to 5 or 6 years, all the good pilots are going to go to DAL, SWA, or other carriers that pay well.. What would be the point to come to AAI? The past 5 years AAI has had 2 things going for them. #1. Fast upgrade to decent pay scales (even though they are bad pay scales for a captain). #2. No one else was hiring.... With everyone else starting to hire, AAI will be forced to scrape from the bottom of the barrel to get pilots. Is that the type of pilot you wann fly with on your 4 day trip?

 

[BeachBumz]

BR715
1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

[/quote]


Lear 70 beat me to the point regarding your latest post. The NPA is not a weak union, our elected officials do not posses the leadership qualities to continue to be head of this union. You and I are the union, they are just elected officials that are in a position to make sure that our voice is heard loud and clear. Unfortunately, it seems that they lack the leadership qualities to make this happen. They have not stepped up and listened to this pilot group, whether it be the Wilson Polling Center or NPA conference calls. After the last conference call it seemed that AP was aloof as far as what this pilot group was out to achieve in negotiations.

This is a fight that we must see through to the end. Management has realized the same exact thing this pilot group has, which is how weak the leadership is by the NPA and they are playing it for everything it is worth. With the right people elected to these positions you will see the pendulum swing in a different direction with our negotiations.

Loss of work rules, no cap on our insurance, and scope are huge contentions this pilot group must address. Us signing a contract just because the company has told the union this is their last offer is ridiculous.

 

[wood pecker]

Does any one know how many pilots we have lost recently? And does anyone know how to spell recently? The latest seniority list still shows 5 guys I know who have quit. 1 was still on IOE, another just finished IOE, another hired Mar06, and the rest less than 1 year. Will history repeat itself and AAI require sign on contracts just to attract enough pilots to fill a class or will they just agree we are special and give us a contract?

 

[PCL_128]

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.................I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

Everyone would do very well to listen to this. Let's just say that the recall goes through and AP and MS are replaced with candidates that better understand and represent the opinions of the pilot group. Will it really help this situation? I say no. This situation isn't fixable with a simple replacement of a couple of figureheads at the top of the NPA. The problem we have is that we've outgrown the "student council" that represents us. We're going up against some guys in management that are very experienced in this business. And what do we have to counter that? A tiny little organization called the NPA with little resources and practically no experience. Sorry to use the tired old phrase, but we're bringing a knife to a gunfight. Management has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal. They can afford however many consultants and attorneys it takes for them to "win" this thing. Meanwhile, we have a tiny, young union with no National affiliation and no experience. Sorry, but we just don't stand a chance in this fight. If this pilot group wants to take their place with the rest of the big boys in the "major" airlines, then it's time to get a real union with real resources. Until we're ready to take that step, then we're just going to get beaten down.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Everyone would do very well to listen to this. Let's just say that the recall goes through and AP and MS are replaced with candidates that better understand and represent the opinions of the pilot group. Will it really help this situation? I say no. This situation isn't fixable with a simple replacement of a couple of figureheads at the top of the NPA. The problem we have is that we've outgrown the "student council" that represents us. We're going up against some guys in management that are very experienced in this business. And what do we have to counter that? A tiny little organization called the NPA with little resources and practically no experience. Sorry to use the tired old phrase, but we're bringing a knife to a gunfight. Management has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal. They can afford however many consultants and attorneys it takes for them to "win" this thing. Meanwhile, we have a tiny, young union with no National affiliation and no experience. Sorry, but we just don't stand a chance in this fight. If this pilot group wants to take their place with the rest of the big boys in the "major" airlines, then it's time to get a real union with real resources. Until we're ready to take that step, then we're just going to get beaten down.

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering? Why isn't the membership better informed? Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

 

[SkiFishFly]

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering? Why isn't the membership better informed? Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

Keep this up Frank and you are going to have to give up that screen name...

 

[Lear70]

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

TRUE DAT!

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

Again, we have a winner. The question is, do we have enough people here who are willing to get their hands dirty, 'cause that's what it's going to take...

There's one guy running who thinks we can REDUCE the staff during contract talks, REDUCE our budget, and he can run the union while still being a line pilot on a daily basis and no one will have to worry about picketing or chaos or striking, he'll just "fix" it. WAY wrong approach, and I hope the membership sees past the "easy path" and realizes nothing good comes without struggle.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering?

Very few. The leadership has been running an "in favor / out of favor" court for a long time. Not to mention a lot of people here came from regionals and they're a bit shell-shocked, just happy to have a better QOL.

Problem is, if this goes through, that QOL will disappear for many people on the list, ESPECIALLY newly-upgraded Captains. Have to educate them of that fact.

Why isn't the membership better informed?

Because the NPA leadership doesn't WANT the pilots better-informed. They want them compliant with whatever THEY think is best for the company. Again, too many new people for that approach to work anymore, hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Because they've been very carefully conditioned for the last several years by not only the company but their own NPA. It's actually disgusting to watch when your own elected leadership tries scare tactics, strong-arm tactics, and outright falsehoods at roadshows to advance their T.A.

That's what got me involved to begin with, got sick of NOT being represented. Hell, my own status rep just parrots the party line, even when you present FACTS that point out the lies.

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

He's got a long resume of union work, but he's likely waiting to see who ends up in office.

I won't get involved either if the wrong people are in control. Kind of like p*ssing into the wind. Been there, done that, have that t-shirt. That's why it's so CRITICAL we elect Leadership who has the same agenda and goals that most of us *appear* to desire.

I could be WAY off-base and, if so, I'll just shut up and fly my trips, but I think everyone is tired of the black helicopter leadership with mushroom mentality communications and sub-par contract offerings. Could be wrong, it's happened before.

 

[Lear70]

Does any one know how many pilots we have lost recently? And does anyone know how to spell recently? The latest seniority list still shows 5 guys I know who have quit. 1 was still on IOE, another just finished IOE, another hired Mar06, and the rest less than 1 year. Will history repeat itself and AAI require sign on contracts just to attract enough pilots to fill a class or will they just agree we are special and give us a contract?

Good questions.

The NPA knows, it's part of the dues checkoff requirement... they have to know who to take off the list.

I wouldn't imagine the people maintaining that list for us are too concerned about its accuracy for US. I'm sure the number of people leaving has jumped, and will only go up as NWA and UAL start actually conducting classes.

SWA might even out those attrition rates, at least for a while, as they are slowing their growth, but they have several hundred in the pool, including Hobday and some others here who will leave when their number comes up.

Signing contract? I doubt it. Signing bonus, maybe. (yeah, right). When the well spring of talent dries up, they'll just expand their "minimums" and attract lower-time RJ guys who can't *quite* get on with the majors yet. Would be a short-sighted move to leave before they got 1,000 PIC 121 but it would ensure they stay here for several years as they wouldn't be marketable elsewhere.

 

[PCL_128]

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Several of those legacy ALPA carriers ended up with snapback clauses (DAL pilots get up to 6% annual raises if the company is profitable) and bankruptcy claims (senior DAL pilots got a $400k check) through the negotiating process during their bankruptcies. Do you think the NPA could have achieved the same result? If you do, then you haven't been paying very close attention. No union can prevent concessions while in bankruptcy, but the right union can provide resources and experience that allow you to minimize the damage.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

Bulls#&%. The strength of the membership is certainly important, but what happens behind closed doors during negotiations is highly dependant on those fancy lawyers and the experience of the negotiators and advisors that you have available.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

That's a vast oversimplification of a very complicated process. How 'bout things like scope and R & I? You think any old Joe can negotiate these complicated sections? ALPA has attorneys that specialize in these matters that can help write the language. What do we have? Skipper. We have the help of Seth, but he's just a single attorney that doesn't specialize in every area that is needed during a complicated negotiating process.

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

I've got 5 years of union work under my belt, so I think I've got a little bit of credibility when I talk about the NPA and unions in general. But I agree with you that we need the right people to step up to the plate and do the job.

 

[DougCorp-9]

The new TA is on the NPA website. Get to work Lear.

 

[Lear70]

Dang, you're fast.

I checked the website an hour ago and it wasn't up yet.

Shouldn't take too long, I don't think they've messed with too much but I'll have to double-check. I really wish they would post the copy that we used for negotiations - it has changes in red and highlight bars on the sides to show you exactly what changed and where.

 

[Lear70]

1st thing that I checked was the pay rate reductions per hour we gave back to get back core block.

An average of $1.70 per hour less for the CA's in every year and longevity scale, an average of $0.50 cents an hour less for the F/O's, or about 1-1.5% of the total hourly rates.

One of our guys put together an excellent table that shows what our pay rates for every year for both seats should be adjusted for COLA. I'll post it later alongside the current rates and proposed rates and probably put it in a graph so you can see how close the proposed rates are to baseline COLA off our current wages.

Have other stuff to do today, will work on this more this afternoon...