NO please at Tranny!!

[Frank Lorenzo]

Instructor Dude?

Low paid whore?

 

[Kharma Police]

Low paid whore?

You or me?

 

[wood pecker]

Hey BR,
I can not access the new TA, are you reading that we are keeping the current work rules plus pay raises? Either I mis-understood your post or you wrote you might consider voting yes. You might be senior enough but the unlimited turboprop clause/RJs is a no for me and other junior FOs and the losing all credit on reserves.

 

[Lear70]

To me industry standard is ok with me. The FO's are getting a raise of 10 dollars a year,

Hey, I know who you are... don't make me come smack you.

Seriously, the new F/O rates are NOT industry standard. They're about 10-15% UNDER industry standard AT DATE OF SIGNING!

So, based on your quote above, you're prepared to vote No, correct? Since you need "industry standard" pay rates to vote yes and THIS IS NOT IT...

If everyone is getting a raise and keeping the same work rules we have now then I think it is in our best interest to see the company continue to grow and get more aircraft.

We're NOT keeping the same work rules we have now... did you MISS the rebuttal bulletpoints? There's STILL concessions in almost EVERY section:

1. Scope - concessions
2. Jumpseat letter - no permanent language
4. Pay - many of the increases AREN'T EVEN COST OF LIVING RAISES! Oh yeah, loss of Door close is a concession.
5. Scheduling - Reserve Towme Grievance Pay giveback, ready reserve all the dang time, including at outstations with very little extra pay for doing it. Concession in late return to domicile language. Loss of window/aisle seat for deadheading. The list goes on and on.
12. Insurance concessions allowing increases in both premiums AND co-pays that are higher than current book. NO ONE will EVER be able to elect into Platinum PPO again.
13. Grievance concessions that allow the company to miss a deadline with no penalty but if WE miss one, the company wins automatically. Allowances for any grievance committee member to kill your grievance before it even goes to System Board and you have NO recourse.
14. Training concessionary language further allowing company more leeway in terminating someone who fails ANY 3 events over their ENTIRE CAREER.
18. Furlough and Recall concessionary language allowing company to furlough us if another group goes on strike and we lose 30 day notice or pay in lieu of.
20. Hotels. Stayed in Dallas lately? Expect these kinds of hotels to become MORE prolific, not less, with the loopholes in the "new and improved" hotel section. ALL the language is ambiguous and gives us NO power to change anything.

These are ALL concessions from current book. So, you're not going to consider voting yes anymore, are you?

Considering voting for it.

I imagine, after the above, you might want to reconsider that... It's highly concessionary and the pay increases are just BARELY COLA.

Like others have mentioned, the company has BRILLIANTLY manipulated the NPA BoD (you know who I'm talking about) into thinking that the "tweaking" done to the T.A. actually brings us BACK to current book, when it's NOT EVEN CLOSE!

Yes to recall. Yes to recall. NO to the T.A. Start over again with current book and pay rates equivalent to ALL Major carriers, including Purple and Brown as a STARTING POINT.

Some people evidently missed Negotiations 101.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Yes to recall. Yes to recall. NO to the T.A. Start over again with current book and pay rates equivalent to ALL Major carriers, including Purple and Brown as a STARTING POINT.

Some people evidently missed Negotiations 101.

[/Lorenzo OFF]

You are getting warmer.

How about this - start with Purple & Brown +30% as a STARTING POINT. Bargain down from there.

Why start where the others are today, then give the IDIOTS running your union the opportunity to bargain down to where you are now?

What good is pattern bargaining to the rest of us if you are not willing to raise the bar?

Come on guys. Don't disappoint.

[Lorenzo ON]

Executive bonuses.... yipeeee!!!!

 

[BR715]

Allow me to reply. Lear 70 you make many good points, and I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. I will reconsider my vote and have done so before I made my previous post. However there are many things that people are failing to realize.

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

 

[maxblast72]

You can bet your @ss that Alaska is watching our negotiations very, very close... Remember, they used to make $104/hr third year at Alaska, now its $73/hr.. I really don't see why AAI can't pay FO's around $75/hr for third year pay, topping out around $80/hr.. BTW, that is still below industry average..... The fast upgrades are going away.. Guys can plan on seing upgrade go to 4, 5, or most likely even 6 years.... So, the fast upgrade excuse doesn't work anymore... ..

According to airlinepilotcentral.com, Alaska most junior captain was hired in 2000, which puts them at 7 year upgrade. With their 737 replacing MD-80's and the age 65 rule close, I don't see upgrades getting any sooner at Alaska. Our upgrades are at 3 years right now but will come up to 4 or 5 years soon. I think a guy hired in 2004 or 2005 at Airtran has alot higher expectations than a guy hired at Alaska. That is the gamble you take staying at Airtran. I don't think the grass is that much greener anywhere else, and have no problem with guys not happy with Airtran leaving (4 days trips are much more enjoyable with happy people).

That being said, I still don't understand why we have a 15 year pay scale in the TA when that money could have been used to increase the FO's pay instead of increasing our the pay of our 180K senior CA's to 200K.

 

[Lear70]

Allow me to reply. Lear 70 you make many good points, and I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

Glad you're at least listening to both sides of the puzzle. A lot of people take one side or the other and don't ever keep an open mind. Thank you for doing so.

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

That's somewhat true. That is why we need leadership that has experience with other unions as well and yes, I'm talking about ALPA experience.

We don't have to BE an ALPA carrier to actually take advantage of some of their resources. AP and group have purchased those resources, but are not using them for their full potential.

So, I therefore believe that with the RIGHT leadership in place, the result CAN and WILL be different. I understand, however, your belief that it won't be, based on your experience here. It has been and continues to be very frustrating.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

These two go hand-in-hand, simply because I want to take the chance to point out that these two are not mutually exclusive items.

For instance, what good would an extra $500 a month for 12 months (F/O raises) do you if the company chose to defer 737 deliveries again and started running outsourced 100-seat Embraers in an 86-seat configuration (business/coach combination), thus delaying your upgrade by a year?

Is a year of CA pay worth a $6,000 loss in income for another year of negotiations to get our Scope back? I think so...

All the sections in the contract work together to give the company a combined dollar amount of savings that offsets quite a bit of the salary increases. It may take another year to get a decent T.A., but it will be COMPLETELY worth it if we fix the problems along with salaries that make this airline the career stop we all came here for.

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

I actually blame both. The company shouldn't be trying to take advantage of us in the manner they are, and I believe they're alienating their workforce by doing so, much to their own detriment which will only be obvious later in the game.

The NPA leadership has simply been outmatched by Kolski and team and refuses to acknowledge that loss and resign to make way for people who are willing to fight the hard fight.

That being said, I still don't understand why we have a 15 year pay scale in the TA when that money could have been used to increase the FO's pay instead of increasing our the pay of our 180K senior CA's to 200K.

I don't mind a 15-year pay scale, although I think those rates could have been spread more evenly by year 12 CA. The CA's at this airline deserve that kind of pay, no doubt about it.

The F/O's should have been brought up CONSIDERABLY more than they did. I don't buy off on the old "the pie is only so big, how do you want to divide it out?" argument.

If there's not enough pie to go around, time for management to bake a bigger pie with the profits they've been raking in.

 

[gt1900]

Max... You have a point... But, what about a guy hired 2 months ago? Is their career expectations really any differenct than an Alaska pilot, or SWA pilot??? NO, AAI doesn't have enough planes on order for the guys coming on line to ever upgrade.. You said that 4 day trips are much better with people that are happy.. BUT, aren't they much better with people who are competant as well? When AAI's upgrade jumps to 5 or 6 years, all the good pilots are going to go to DAL, SWA, or other carriers that pay well.. What would be the point to come to AAI? The past 5 years AAI has had 2 things going for them. #1. Fast upgrade to decent pay scales (even though they are bad pay scales for a captain). #2. No one else was hiring.... With everyone else starting to hire, AAI will be forced to scrape from the bottom of the barrel to get pilots. Is that the type of pilot you wann fly with on your 4 day trip?

 

[BeachBumz]

BR715
1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.

2. The company itself will not even spend a dime to fix up the gate appearance in BWI let alone throw another 8 million towards signing bonuses that will need to be paid to the pilot group after we wait another 18 months to get this resolved.

3. We will get all of the things that you listed above however by the time we get it we will all have lost a lot of money. We all no too well that time means money!!!!!!!

Yes Mr. M I will vote No and wait for this whole thing to play out, while I picket and sit through the cooling off period. (Which is actually a very hot period during the year considering it will be next August before we are back where we are today.)

I don't blame the Company I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

[/quote]


Lear 70 beat me to the point regarding your latest post. The NPA is not a weak union, our elected officials do not posses the leadership qualities to continue to be head of this union. You and I are the union, they are just elected officials that are in a position to make sure that our voice is heard loud and clear. Unfortunately, it seems that they lack the leadership qualities to make this happen. They have not stepped up and listened to this pilot group, whether it be the Wilson Polling Center or NPA conference calls. After the last conference call it seemed that AP was aloof as far as what this pilot group was out to achieve in negotiations.

This is a fight that we must see through to the end. Management has realized the same exact thing this pilot group has, which is how weak the leadership is by the NPA and they are playing it for everything it is worth. With the right people elected to these positions you will see the pendulum swing in a different direction with our negotiations.

Loss of work rules, no cap on our insurance, and scope are huge contentions this pilot group must address. Us signing a contract just because the company has told the union this is their last offer is ridiculous.