ALPA sues SKYW

[HelloNewman]

1. You sure do have a great deal of hate for unions.
2. So have you heard of a little old airline from Texas? SWA? Have they had problems with Herb K. or Kelly? No.
3. SWA does too. The difference is they were smart enough to get things in a contract. It didn't change the relationship. It's strickly business. Protecting the pilots' interests.
4. If this were to happen at Skywest Airlines you would be to late Jack!

One big difference, Southwest isn't ALPA. Things just aren't that harmonious at other airlines. At SkyWest we have pretty good management like Southwest does. ALPA is just too hostile of an organization. Mr. Prater already clearly stated his intentions for "hard nosed barganing". ALPA is already going back to what caused the downfall of many great pilot contracts. This is one of the reasons the union drive is stagnant here.

Part of the reason we have kept a union away for 35 years is the pilots simply have felt they don't need one. It has to tell you something when it is 35 years and vote after vote doesn't pass. Getting things in writing doesn't mean crap. We all saw how easily Mesaba declared a sham bankruptcy and circumvented the contract anyway. If a company wants to screw you over they will find a way contract or not. Things just aren't like that here at Skywest. The company is not out to screw you. Out to make the biggest profit possible? Yes but that is a good thing for all of us.

 

[BigLebowski]

Well that happens when people know the've done wrong also.

I also see you avoided the other questions put to you.

Avoided the question...not close. I dont' see how you can compare SkyW to Southwest, and ALPA to SWAPA. Completely different scenario. Can you tell me how if we went ALPA that would even put a regional close to the airline leading the country right now? I mean this is really taking your ignorance to a whole new level.

Didn't resign due to anythign other than dislike for the company pal. You see I made a move because I wasn't happy with the company I was at...so I went to a company where I am happy...why don't you do the same? Don't give me that you put in too much time either, lots of people left where I came from with a lot more time than I had because they were unhappy.

BTW I noticed that you didn't answer the question posed to you...Please give me 5 reasons to vote ALPA on property...no flame, just do it, be serious...can you?

 

[HelloNewman]

BTW I noticed that you didn't answer the question posed to you...Please give me 5 reasons to vote ALPA on property...no flame, just do it, be serious...can you?

I will predict the same lame reasons they always give

1) We will have a CONTRACT ooooh wow big woop. First of all everything we have in the manual gets locked in except at 2% less. Then it can take as long as 5 years to get a new contract while we dish out all that money. Basically it would not be any different now. The company is not going out of their way to screw us. Also if the contract is violated grievances can take months if not years to resolve. Just ask Mesa guys about the Harris award. Basically the contract can be violated anyway and the company just says grieve it! We already have a PIC procedure which is often decided in favor of the pilot.

2) You won't be fired without just cause. I still don't buy the fact the comapny randomly fires people. Mr. Douglas is the only name I have ever been able to verify. If anyone else has stories feel free to PM me. Also remember when a pilot gets canned you only get the pilot side of the story not the whole story.

3) Access to unlimited resources, legal/medical/loss of lisence blah blah. The only problem is you have to pay EVEN MORE MONEY to get the medical/lisence coverage. They try to con you into thinking the 2% covers everything yet you still have to pay even more for that insurance. You could be out a lot of money every month. A lot of times you can take initiative and get your medical back just as easy as ALPA can. ALPA probably bribes people in the FAA to look at their cases faster to make themselves look better. If I lose my certificates I have plenty of other ways to make money.

Thats the top 3 reasons people always come up with. No one has ever been able to come up with FIVE, seperate, solid reasons. It is the same rhetoric re hashed over and over. They promise you the moon but rarely can even get you to the launching pad. Don't hold your breath for 5 good reasons. I have already shot down 3 of the most common reasons.

Lets see if they can come up with 5 original new ideas. Maybe they will save that for the inevitable next union drive. ALPA will take their ball and go home but only for so long. They can not stay away from us forever.

 

[Texx]

Avoided the question...not close. I dont' see how you can compare SkyW to Southwest, and ALPA to SWAPA. Completely different scenario. Can you tell me how if we went ALPA that would even put a regional close to the airline leading the country right now? I mean this is really taking your ignorance to a whole new level.

Didn't resign due to anythign other than dislike for the company pal. You see I made a move because I wasn't happy with the company I was at...so I went to a company where I am happy...why don't you do the same? Don't give me that you put in too much time either, lots of people left where I came from with a lot more time than I had because they were unhappy.

BTW I noticed that you didn't answer the question posed to you...Please give me 5 reasons to vote ALPA on property...no flame, just do it, be serious...can you?

I didn't even mention ALPA. But you do see they have a union.

You didn't put the questions to me. You did to someone else. So your questions are mute in response to mine.

So at the end of the day I guess the SWA pilots are just a little bit smarter and better business people than the Skywest pilots.

The attempt at an insult is amusing. Please read my posts before you waste my time with your dribble.

 

[Texx]

One big difference, Southwest isn't ALPA. Things just aren't that harmonious at other airlines. At SkyWest we have pretty good management like Southwest does. ALPA is just too hostile of an organization. Mr. Prater already clearly stated his intentions for "hard nosed barganing". ALPA is already going back to what caused the downfall of many great pilot contracts. This is one of the reasons the union drive is stagnant here.

Part of the reason we have kept a union away for 35 years is the pilots simply have felt they don't need one. It has to tell you something when it is 35 years and vote after vote doesn't pass. Getting things in writing doesn't mean crap. We all saw how easily Mesaba declared a sham bankruptcy and circumvented the contract anyway. If a company wants to screw you over they will find a way contract or not. Things just aren't like that here at Skywest. The company is not out to screw you. Out to make the biggest profit possible? Yes but that is a good thing for all of us.

And as I stated to your reading challenged partner, I didn't talk about ALPA.

Ah, your not a business person are you. Tell Jerry he doesn't have to sign any more contracts with DAL, UAL or Midwest. He can trust everybody.

Someday though with the shortage of pilots, the race to the bottom and greed coming your way someday. When you grow up, come play with the big boys.

 

[BigLebowski]

Texx, what Southwest has would be better here at SkyW than ALPA. I would vote for something like Southwest has had it come up here...but it won't. If you think though that voting on a union at SkyW would make us anything like SWA...you truly are ignorant.

Now can you please answer my question. Give me 5 solid reasons why I would vote ALPA on property. The last question was addressed to you as is this one.

 

[Texx]

Texx, what Southwest has would be better here at SkyW than ALPA. I would vote for something like Southwest has had it come up here...but it won't. If you think though that voting on a union at SkyW would make us anything like SWA...you truly are ignorant.

Now can you please answer my question. Give me 5 solid reasons why I would vote ALPA on property. The last question was addressed to you as is this one.

And as I have stated before I will state again since your having difficulty reading. My posts have never talked about ALPA so how could I answer your questions when ALPA is not a topic on my plate?

I hope you can fly an airplane better that you can read.

 

[HelloNewman]

The biggest difference between southwest and skywest is we are a contract feeder period end of sentance. We are on no terms to make huge demands. Our contract with delta has an opt out if we get too expensive. If we truly want to be in southwests league we first have to break out of the shackles of being a contract airline. Mark my words, there will be no union or no industry leading contract as long as we are just a contract airline. A union does virtually no good to an airline who is in the buisness of keeping costs as low as possible. BTW we will always be a contract airline in some form as long as there is a fee per departure out there. That fee per departure is very addicting to all managements.

The safest way to keep our contracts is to wait and see what other airlines get first then match pretty close to what they get. Staying low cost is key to survival and as long as we never lead the industry so to speak then we are in good shape.

 

[BigLebowski]

Texx, you have not talked about ALPA directly but yet you are comparing a union contract such as SWA to SkyW. Since SWAPA cannot represent SkyW, that leaves the ALPA argument here. This is the subject of your posts as well as implying that SkyW is starting a race to the bottom. So answer this then, I'll have someone read it to me and explain it too since I can't seem to get the "message" in your intelligant posts...

What will bringing a union on property do for SkyW? I only ask for 5 reasons. Since as you stated we are in a race for the bottom, and we do everything based on trust as you stated JA does with DAL, UAL, and Midwest.

 

[www.]

Texx, you have not talked about ALPA directly but yet you are comparing a union contract such as SWA to SkyW. Since SWAPA cannot represent SkyW, that leaves the ALPA argument here. This is the subject of your posts as well as implying that SkyW is starting a race to the bottom. So answer this then, I'll have someone read it to me and explain it too since I can't seem to get the "message" in your intelligant posts...

What will bringing a union on property do for SkyW? I only ask for 5 reasons. Since as you stated we are in a race for the bottom, and we do everything based on trust as you stated JA does with DAL, UAL, and Midwest.

I don't think he was trying to say for SWAPA to represent Skywest pilots. You might want to read up on fair representation. I think that's where he's coming from.

 

[Texx]

I don't think he was trying to say for SWAPA to represent Skywest pilots. You might want to read up on fair representation. I think that's where he's coming from.

Ding, Ding, Ding... We have a winner.

 

[Texx]

The biggest difference between southwest and skywest is we are a contract feeder period end of sentance. We are on no terms to make huge demands. Our contract with delta has an opt out if we get too expensive. If we truly want to be in southwests league we first have to break out of the shackles of being a contract airline. Mark my words, there will be no union or no industry leading contract as long as we are just a contract airline. A union does virtually no good to an airline who is in the buisness of keeping costs as low as possible. BTW we will always be a contract airline in some form as long as there is a fee per departure out there. That fee per departure is very addicting to all managements.

The safest way to keep our contracts is to wait and see what other airlines get first then match pretty close to what they get. Staying low cost is key to survival and as long as we never lead the industry so to speak then we are in good shape.

You still don't get the point.

It has nothing to do with what type of airline you are. And I said nothing about "industry leading contract" either. Read www's post.

You state "our contracts"? I thought you work for Skywest Airlines?

 

[Texx]

Texx, you have not talked about ALPA directly but yet you are comparing a union contract such as SWA to SkyW. Since SWAPA cannot represent SkyW, that leaves the ALPA argument here. This is the subject of your posts as well as implying that SkyW is starting a race to the bottom. So answer this then, I'll have someone read it to me and explain it too since I can't seem to get the "message" in your intelligant posts...

What will bringing a union on property do for SkyW? I only ask for 5 reasons. Since as you stated we are in a race for the bottom, and we do everything based on trust as you stated JA does with DAL, UAL, and Midwest.

No it does not. ALPA is not the only game in town. As for your 5 reason I'll ask you these questions and can take you time to answer.

1. Pay. Can Skywest Airlines change your rate at their choosing?
2. Benefits. Your profit sharing and stock purchase, can those go away at anytime? Your 401k match, can that be changed?
3. Seniority. JA has a buddy, he's a new hire, and he wants to take care of him so he puts him in the next Captains' class. What can you do since this is out of seniority order?
4. Representation with the FAA. FAA comes after you. Is Skywest Airlines going to supply a aviation lawyer to see your case all the way to the Administrative Law Judge?
5. Sorry, The above 4. should be important enough.

As for the trust, I really don't think JA does a hand shake on your flying with these ailrines does he. The point being business transactions do better in a contract than a gentlemens agreement.

 

[HelloNewman]

No it does not. ALPA is not the only game in town. As for your 5 reason I'll ask you these questions and can take you time to answer.

1. Pay. Can Skywest Airlines change your rate at their choosing?
2. Benefits. Your profit sharing and stock purchase, can those go away at anytime? Your 401k match, can that be changed?
3. Seniority. JA has a buddy, he's a new hire, and he wants to take care of him so he puts him in the next Captains' class. What can you do since this is out of seniority order?
4. Representation with the FAA. FAA comes after you. Is Skywest Airlines going to supply a aviation lawyer to see your case all the way to the Administrative Law Judge?
5. Sorry, The above 4. should be important enough.

As for the trust, I really don't think JA does a hand shake on your flying with these ailrines does he. The point being business transactions do better in a contract than a gentlemens agreement.

1. So how does having a union guarantee higher pay? By getting a union be it alpa or anyone else the dues are subtracted from our income right away. To me that is a 2% paycut right off the bat. In 35 years I have never heard of a paycut imposed without a vote. It took a while to get our new pay agreement expired in 2005. Guess what ASA has been trying for 5 years and they have a UNION. Having a union does not guarantee anything in the pay department.

2. Has the 401k match ever been lowered? Again all these scenarios you give are paranoid they are out to get me statements rather than anything else. So far the stock sharing and 401k match are working just fine. There is the HCE problem but how could ALPA solve that? Grieve it? Grievances can take years. Can ALPA force the IRS to change tax laws?

3. Again you speak from paranoia not facts. Has anyone at SkyWest ever been unfairly bumped ahead in seniority? The only seniority bumps that happen are those who have been SkyWest employees before. They goto the head of the class in seniority but still have the same DOH as everyone else. It has not happened yet. The airline has been pretty good about honoring the seniority system. Some people will speak of the bucket system. That system is simply the most efficent way to use reserves. Why use 3 reserves to cover one 4 day trip when you can use one reserve in the 4 day bucket to cover the entire trip. Seniority is still honored within the bucket. This is how reserve should have been all along. 1 day bucket does locals, 2 day bucket does 2 days etc. etc. This is a reasonable efficent way to do reserve.

4. Skywest does have a legal plan that we do pay for. We also have the ASAP program which protects you from FAA certificate action unless it involves intentional negligence or alcohol. If you fall under those two categories you don't deserve protection anyway. Also if the ASAP filed is sole source you are not subject to disciplinary action. If you make a mistake fill out your ASAP and you won't need a lawyer.

5. Sorry but if that is the best you can come up with no wonder why this union drive is destined for failure. It confirms my suspicion though that the entire case for a union is predicated on the boogeyman could get you scenarios. They are simply trying to scare us into unrealistic scenarios. BTW I believe a California judge ruled that the policy manual is in effect a contract with employees. We already have things in writing, according to California it is a contract. Who knows what other courts may or may not say. I will take my chances without a union thank you.

You say buisness transactions do better with a contract. I think SkyWest pilots have done just fine the last 35 years without a union contract and without having to pay union dues. Plenty of other airlines already utilize the union services, let them do what they must. We will simply follow suit with what they do.

 

[rtmcfi]

Has the 401k match ever been lowered? So far the stock sharing and 401k match are working just fine. There is the HCE problem but how could ALPA solve that? Grieve it? Grievances can take years. Can ALPA force the IRS to change tax laws?
quote]

A little before your time son, but ask some of the senior guys (in ORD, that would probably be someone passing through the crew lounge, mid-trip) about the old bonus program. Pre-"performance rewards". You will find out that you used to save more for retirement. It was tax-advantaged. You received more money. So while the match has not been lowered, the amount going in has been reduced. What has SAPA done to fix the HCE problem. Actually let m re-phrase that....What has BH allowed SAPA to do to fix the HCE program. here are some sharp cookies working on the issue at SAPA (W.S.).
Unfortunately mgmt does nothing to help the problem. It is a problem that can be worked around. The tax laws can be worked around. Your management just chooses not to. Other (union) carriers have dealt with this problem. As far as grieving it goes, you are so ill-informed, I don't know where to start....

Has anyone at SkyWest ever been unfairly bumped ahead in seniority?

Yes, during the initial stages of the 70 seater program. Happened all the time. Sr guys who were 70 qualified were forced to fly 70 rips. Jr folks who were only 50 qualified were able to take 50 seat lines that Sr. pilots wanted.

The only seniority bumps that happen are those who have been SkyWest employees before. They goto the head of the class in seniority but still have the same DOH as everyone else.

Same DOH, but better seniority number. You point it out yourself...

It has not happened yet. The airline has been pretty good about honoring the seniority system.

But, not really that good....

Some people will speak of the bucket system. That system is simply the most efficient way to use reserves.

So, abrogation of seniority is OK in the name of company efficiency....

4.

Skywest does have a legal plan that we do pay for.

Oh please tell us more about this....

Also if the ASAP filed is sole source you are not subject to disciplinary action

.
However, unlike real ASAP programs, if the info is not sole source, you can expect to see the Chief Pilot. Kinda goes against the whole idea of ASAP doesn't it?

If you make a mistake fill out your ASAP and you won't need a lawyer.

Tell that to your chief if you end up in his office

You are a pita. I get sick of pointing out all of your inaccuracies and half-truths. I really wish you worked for another carrier so I didn't feel the need to constantly set the record straight.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Has the 401k match ever been lowered? So far the stock sharing and 401k match are working just fine. There is the HCE problem but how could ALPA solve that? Grieve it? Grievances can take years. Can ALPA force the IRS to change tax laws?
quote]

A little before your time son, but ask some of the senior guys (in ORD, that would probably be someone passing through the crew lounge, mid-trip) about the old bonus program. Pre-"performance rewards". You will find out that you used to save more for retirement. It was tax-advantaged. You received more money. So while the match has not been lowered, the amount going in has been reduced. What has SAPA done to fix the HCE problem. Actually let m re-phrase that....What has BH allowed SAPA to do to fix the HCE program. here are some sharp cookies working on the issue at SAPA (W.S.).
Unfortunately mgmt does nothing to help the problem. It is a problem that can be worked around. The tax laws can be worked around. Your management just chooses not to. Other (union) carriers have dealt with this problem. As far as grieving it goes, you are so ill-informed, I don't know where to start....



Yes, during the initial stages of the 70 seater program. Happened all the time. Sr guys who were 70 qualified were forced to fly 70 rips. Jr folks who were only 50 qualified were able to take 50 seat lines that Sr. pilots wanted.


Same DOH, but better seniority number. You point it out yourself...


But, not really that good....

So, abrogation of seniority is OK in the name of company efficiency....

4.
Oh please tell us more about this....
.
However, unlike real ASAP programs, if the info is not sole source, you can expect to see the Chief Pilot. Kinda goes against the whole idea of ASAP doesn't it?

Tell that to your chief if you end up in his office

You are a pita. I get sick of pointing out all of your inaccuracies and half-truths. I really wish you worked for another carrier so I didn't feel the need to constantly set the record straight.

I don't think there are more than a couple of guys in ORD that are senior enough to remember that we used to get both profit sharing for our 401K, and bonus checks...Once again, Newwoman chooses to ignore the truth!

 

[DrunkIrishman]

HelloNewman-

Why do you not want ALPA on property? Is it just the paycheck deduction, or perhaps something more philosophical?

Before you answer, please ask yourself if you would want ALPA if they did not deduct anything from your paycheck.

 

[Chairman]

Actually the only ones who get bumped to the front of the class are current employees such as dispatchers, rampers etc. If you worked here before you keep your old employee number and just fall in class based on your seniority number!

 

[Bako Cap]

Crew Policy Manual states that transfers may be out of seniority for company needs.

Example. When FAT first started out as a CRJ domiclie, pilots already trained on the CRJ were given transfers into FAT before senior pilots who had their transition or upgrade bids in for FAT. It became a joke that to get awarded FAT one had to first bid SLC CRJ transition/upgrade, then after being awarded SLC put in a transfer bid for FAT. This also has happened in PDX on the E120.

 

[HelloNewman]

Crew Policy Manual states that transfers may be out of seniority for company needs.

Example. When FAT first started out as a CRJ domiclie, pilots already trained on the CRJ were given transfers into FAT before senior pilots who had their transition or upgrade bids in for FAT. It became a joke that to get awarded FAT one had to first bid SLC CRJ transition/upgrade, then after being awarded SLC put in a transfer bid for FAT. This also has happened in PDX on the E120.

Honest question. Lets say you have a really senior jet small jet base such as PSP. One pilot decides to give his two week notice therefore leaving an open slot in the base. Lets also say the company isn't running classes at the time. Do you really expect them to run a special class for just one person? Why should the company run class and sim for only one guy? Also lets say they are running classes. It takes about 2-3 months to get through ground school/ sim / ioe. If someone gave 2 week notice then they need that slot filled in a couple weeks not a couple months. Whoever is most senior will get the transfer. Name me one airline that will run a class for just one person to upgrade/transition.

What do you expect them to do spend all that money on hotels for TDY for 2 months while waiting for said pilot to finish training? That is simply absurd. We all know that if you want to be at a small senior base then you are gonna have to suck it up and commute until you are senior enough to hold a transfer. It is quite unreasonable to ask the company to either run a special class for one person or pay the expense to TDY someone to the base while waiting for someone to get done with training when there is an able bodied pilot ready to do the job. This is not a violation of seniority. Everyone knows you have to take the first upgrade and then transfer later if you want to be a captain in a small base.