XJ to get 17 CRJ200's from 9E

[YourPilotFriend]

Will the flow-backs be to regional captain or to the street?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Will the flow-backs be to regional captain or to the street?

NWA flow-backs will be to VP-Flight Ops...the bottom of the managment barrel.

(Use the parchment style paper for the resume...wonky HR dorks love that look!)

 

[Jester119]

Memphis Commercial Appeal-Newspaper about Pinnacle

Pinnacle will partner with Delta

Memphis-based airline inks 10-year deal for regional routes

By Jane Roberts
May 1, 2007

In December, Pinnacle Airlines Corp. will begin flying Delta Air Lines flights out of its hubs, capping a deal in the works for months and positioning Pinnacle to operate from a more diverse platform.

Monday, the day Delta emerged from bankruptcy, Pinnacle said it had signed a 10-year deal with Delta to fly feeder routes on 16 76-seat regional jets Pinnacle is in the process of purchasing.

"We look forward to a long-term partnership with Delta, and we appreciate the confidence that they have placed with us," said Phil Trenary, president and chief executive.

The planes -- Canadair Regional Jets-900s, built by Bombardier Aerospace -- list for $34 million apiece


They are configured to offer first-class and coach seating, a first for Delta's regional flying partners, and part of its post-bankruptcy strategy to be streamlined and facile.

Memphis-based Pinnacle will receive the planes over eight months, starting in November.

"We needed to really make sure we had cost-competitive regional flying that meets the flexibility needed by our network," said Lisa Gagnon, Delta spokeswoman.

Last year, Delta sent out requests for bids for its regional flying. With the Pinnacle announcement, it now has nine carriers -- including wholly owned subsidiary Comair -- on its Delta Connection team. They shuttle passengers from feeder cities to Delta's hubs in New York, Atlanta, Salt Lake City and Cincinnati.

"We need to make sure we have the best flying at the lowest cost. Pinnacle met our needs and our cost needs," Gagnon said.

Having more partners and more planes lets Delta shrink and grow quickly to meet the needs of the marketplace, a lesson it learned in bankruptcy.
While the terms of the deal were not announced, Delta will sell the seats, provide the marketing and ground handling. Pinnacle will be responsible for the rest.

"What we're known for at Pinnacle is performance," Trenary said. "No one can touch us on performance. That's what we have to sell."

Pinnacle expects it will hire about 30 flight attendants to staff the Delta flights. But because the planes will be based in other hubs, the airline's local employee count won't change.

The chance to diversify comes at an opportune time for Pinnacle, which until this year flew solely as an Airlink partner for Northwest Airlines. In that arrangement, Northwest provided the planes, fuel and bookings, and targeted a 10 percent operating margin.

When Pinnacle signed a new deal with Northwest in late December, the price of its stock jumped 57 percent after trading around $6 for much of the year.
Although the new deal allowed Pinnacle to continue flying 139 of Northwest's 50-seat regional jets, it cut the pay almost in half with the caveat that Pinnacle could seek other partners.

Within weeks, Pinnacle announced it had paid $20 million for Colgan Air, the family-owned commuter based in the Northeast with contracts with US Airways, Continental and United airlines.

A month later, in early February, Pinnacle announced it was buying 15 74-seat Bombardier Q400s for a 10-year contract it had just signed with Continental Airlines out of its expanded hub in Newark, N.J.

"The diversification strategy at Pinnacle is coming along quite nicely," said Doug Abbey at The Velocity Group, an aviation consulting firm in Washington.
"Delta had any number of potential partners that can operate these airplanes." Pinnacle won the bid, because "it runs a highly regarded and competitive company."

Trenary said, "This is huge for Pinnacle. It's bigger planes and a new customer.

"The affirmation is what our employees have been looking for. It's so so important to our people. They've worked hard for this. We will be growing and hiring."

The CRJ-900 makes the transition easier because it is similar to the CRJ-200s Pinnacle flies for Northwest, including that more than 90 percent of its parts are the same.

"It's not the same teething pains of a brand-new plane. Pinnacle will be able to integrate it immediately. And a more common fleet costs less to maintain. It's a very productive way to grow," Abbey said.

The news acts as a counterbalance to the contraction Pinnacle experienced late last week when Northwest said it would be reassigning 15 50-seat planes to wholly owned subsidiary Mesaba Airlines because Pinnacle had not met the March 31 deadline for getting a deal with its pilots.

Because the planes were not committed to Pinnacle on a long-term basis, Pinnacle is entitled to the full amount of its unsecured $42.5 million claim.
Pilot union spokesman Wakefield Gordon doubts the Delta deal will do anything to "push the labor agreement to a conclusion.
"But I will say that management did a good job of putting together a strategic deal on this. They gave planes with an OK-profitability back to Northwest and got cash that allowed them to make the Delta deal. That's good strategic decision-making."


Link to Above http://http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/business/article/0,1426,MCA_440_5513722,00.html

 

[NuGuy]

NWA flow-backs will be to VP-Flight Ops...the bottom of the managment barrel.

(Use the parchment style paper for the resume...wonky HR dorks love that look!)

Heyas Occam,

I understand that if you have the watermark upside down on your resume' it gets sh!tcanned right off the bat.

I will take a minor exception to an above post. Sure the scope was more lax in 1988 at 70 seats, but look at the lift available. The only airframes in that seat range were something along the line of Convairs , which NWA just got done parking, and RJs weren't even a glimer in someone's eye. With that scope, they COULD have outsourced the DC-9-10s, but back in the day there really weren't that many competent "regional" DC-9 operators out there.

The real scope issue shouldn't have been concentrating on seats, but rather the range/lift/speed equation. If they want to outsource a 30 seat jet to the coast or a 50 seat ATR to Rochester, fine, but set it up so the mainline captures the "fat" part of the curve.

I think the era of the senior guys running things is at an end. The pilot group is POed, and the knuckleheads fighting the TDC are only pissing gasoline on the fire. If the "grantor trust" issue is any indication, the pilot group is in a "ready, fire, aim" kind of mood, and one more misstep by the powers that be will make things unconfortable.

Nu

 

[xjhawk]

I am happr for 9E about getting those new planes, I would hate to take opportunity away from anyone. Oh and by the way, in my forseeable future I do not think I will step foot in a 900. Saab pay for me for some time yet I would think.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Sure the scope was more lax in 1988 at 70 seats, but look at the lift available. The only airframes in that seat range were something along the line of Convairs , which NWA just got done parking, and RJs weren't even a glimer in someone's eye. With that scope, they COULD have outsourced the DC-9-10s, but back in the day there really weren't that many competent "regional" DC-9 operators out there.

Not totally correct. The contract back then mentioned the DC-9 by type. It was a protected mainline aircraft. The actual language was "70-seats, over 70,000 MGTOW, or the DC-9."

My point was that our Scope has undergone several changes...in both directions. At one point (March, '98) the 4 Continental LOA's restricted all CAL-affiliated RJ's. Our Scope changes have a direct relationship with the amount of leverage we have...or management has..at the time of negotiations.

The real scope issue shouldn't have been concentrating on seats, but rather the range/lift/speed equation. If they want to outsource a 30 seat jet to the coast or a 50 seat ATR to Rochester, fine, but set it up so the mainline captures the "fat" part of the curve.

I think our Scope should simply put all NWA flying on the same list...then let us carve-out segments on a case-by-case basis if/when we're in the mood to give relief.

I think the era of the senior guys running things is at an end. The pilot group is POed, and the knuckleheads fighting the TDC are only pissing gasoline on the fire. If the "grantor trust" issue is any indication, the pilot group is in a "ready, fire, aim" kind of mood, and one more misstep by the powers that be will make things unconfortable.

TDC is a crime! Shoulda been done within seconds of Bush signing the Pension Reform Act! A simple "review clause" in the MEC resolution could have allowed the MEC to revisit the decision and the formula every 12-months. But so far, they've done NOTHING! That is unacceptable.

The Grantor Trust is a good idea handled poorly. It was discussed by the MEC in December (yes...5 months ago!), but they did NOTHING. Then they wait until the Claim Sale window is closed to announce their "plan"? I'm the opposite of "impressed".

The junior/senior chant is tired, false, and harmful. No such creature. There is a strong perception of it, especially when the MEC waits so long to pull the trigger on the TDC...but the real cause of our grief has nothing to do with the strata in our seniority list.

 

[sf3boy]

Then I won't see any MSA or PCL pilots interviewing at NWA later this year?

Care to wager on that?

There must be something there, else we wouldn't have a need to protect it.



Then we're all agreed! There is no threat. No Airlink pilot is willing to fly the DC-9 for $123/hr. That's settled.

Glad to hear it!

Don't get me wrong, the DC-9 pilots make way more money that the CRJ and Saab pilots. Of course there will be interviewers. And they won't be working for anything less if hired at NWA.....until your senior pilots decide they will for them. BTW, you forget to mention that one has to work for a decade before that illustrious pay kicks in. Year 10 757 FO will earn ballpark $110k. No wonder so many of your furloughs told NW to go suck eggs and are at fractionals or selling cars. This is the real reason that XJ and 9E guys will be interviewing.

 

[Occam's Razor]

And they won't be working for anything less if hired at NWA.....until your senior pilots decide they will for them.

Interesting observation! And by "observation" I mean an observation in the sense that a hallucination is "observed".

Since you know so much about NWA's demographics, please tell me where on a 5,000 pilot list the junior/senior line is drawn?

Is it 2,500? 1,500? Be prepared to defend your answer against the data from the membership ratification vote on the new contract.

My theory is that junior pilots are more of a threat to lowered pay rates than senior pilots because the pilots who would poach your smaller aircraft flying for less are all "junior" in the sense that they aren't on your list. Would there be a concern about the erosion of 100-seat pay rates if there were no pilots willing to fly those aircraft for anything less than the formula rate?

I believe there are pilots who'd fly our DC-9's for a buck less an hour. What do you think?

No wonder so many of your furloughs told NW to go suck eggs and are at fractionals or selling cars.

Got any numbers? How many have accepted recall and how many have bypassed? How many came back then went on Mil Leave? How many died while furloughed? How many lost their medicals while furloughed? How many are waiting until they're a little more senior before they return (which, by being "senior", they instantly become the source of evil in sf3boy World).

 

[sf3boy]

Senior was a bad choice. Majority would have been better. When the "majority" in NWAPLA decides to the DC-9 pilots will fly for less money, then the new hires will fly for $123/hour. I notice that you didn't have a wise crack about the amount of tenure it takes to make such good money. THAT is the reason that the few furloughed guys I know said that they have already turned down the recall. Total numbers????? No clue. The ones I know.....100%.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Fair enough. "Majority" it is.

As it should be. (Give me a fairer alternative, and we'll talk!)

The amount of longevity it takes to make "good money" is a moving target. I checked-out as a DC-9 captain here at 7-years and 9-months. In '99 I gave IOE to pilots hired in late '94...4.5-years. It varies because our bases vary, and our fleet status varies. Parking 20 DC-10s and 20 B747s in 2000 had a bit of an impact on the rate everyone moved up to "good money". From what I understand, that is not a phenomena unique to NWA. Can you confirm?

All furloughed NWA pilots have been recalled. Not all have returned...and a number that have immediately went on Mil Leave.

Every furloughed pilot was given a choice. I can't rationalize each individuals decision...but I can say, with a high degree of professional certainty, that YOU don't know all the reasons.

 

[SplitBar]

$123 is Captain pay correct? I believe most of the XJ CRJ Captains who go to NWA wont see much of a raise or payback until they make Captain at Mainline.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Management money is already in the trough...as you well know, Mr. Rainey. The "conflict" of which you speak (and why do I keep hearing "Helter Skelter" in the background?) is avoided to the extent we have a contract with a significant duration.



We'll get a bunch of it back...thanks to you. As you have consistently proven, you are incapable of staffing this airline properly enough to deliver the cashflow you put in the Disclosure Statement. The Board and the investors will want to know how it got that way...and who is responsible. That's where you come in...or, more accurately...you go out.

Sic semper tyrannus!

Your replacement will have to cut a deal with us for some staffing relief to get those augmentees and F/O IP's trained. We'll get our quids and you'll be working somewhere else...with 2,000 worthless NWA business cards with "Vice President" on them.



1. Get rid of you.
2. Improve the "hot spots" in the contract.
3. Single Carrier Status (that'll be the end of your sucessor's honeymoon here)

Better get in line at the good printer, Mr. Rainey! That resume ain't gonna print itself!

No wrong again, ALPA would never expose an actual airline management shortcoming. Instead they will focus on management pay, maybe rent another blow up animal, hold a informational picket nobody understands. All to continue the "campaign of the meaningless".

 

[Occam's Razor]

$123 is Captain pay correct? I believe most of the XJ CRJ Captains who go to NWA wont see much of a raise or payback until they make Captain at Mainline.

Yeah...prolly not worth it. Think any will interview, anyway? You know...just for yuks?

 

[Occam's Razor]

No wrong again, ALPA would never expose an actual airline management shortcoming.

You mean like HIT in '96, along with the Freighter LOA? Or the 4 CAL LOA's in March '98? How about the "over my dead body!" stock issuance after the strike? The 10.25% pay raise in '03?

Over those years the other management geniuses that held your job got fired too...for the same reasons you'll get axed: Failure to make it work.

Treating pilots like chattel may be easy when you're focused on the bottom line and nothing else. But it breeds a relationship that precludes cooperation, and cooperation could make your job easier and make you more successful...as you'll realize 30-seconds after the security guard shows up to escort you to the curb.

Instead they will focus on management pay, maybe rent another blow up animal, hold a informational picket nobody understands. All to continue the "campaign of the meaningless".

1. We own the rat...and I think it's better to inflate one than to be one.
2. We don't expect you to understand picketing. If you did, you'd be a leader instead of just a manager.
3. Make sure you use the "campaign of the meaningless" bit when you come groveling for staffing relief! [Tip: Use smaller words. They'll be easier to eat later!]

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Occam,

You go girl

 

[737 Pylt]

Maybe I am wrong but that definition of Single Carrier petition to the NMB was given to the Comair MEC by Bill Roberts prior to the PID request in 2000.

Single? So when your mom gets done with the pro basketball team, does that mean she's still single?

Are you saying we shouldn't take an ALPA attorney at their word?

Get back to gumming Dan and Jessee, and tell us all how it felt! Do you take their word when they tell you the check's in the mail!??:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[redflyer65]

177/hr for a Northwest 747-400 Captain. I have a hard time grasping how low that number is for that size of plane. That's the top tier at Northwest. It doesn't go any higher. Then look at Southwest payscales and you see they top out ABOVE that. Something is wrong with this situation. I tend to think it's how bad the management is at Northwest.

Slash labor rates and take a huge bonus. Somethings wrong. Criminally wrong.

 

[Lear70]

Slash labor rates and take a huge bonus. Somethings wrong. Criminally wrong.

Agreed.

And the criminally wrong behavior starts in the Oval Office and works its way down through the House, the Senate, into the pockets of big business, and so on and so forth by EMPOWERING that behavior by failing to take steps to curb it, even though they have been told repeatedly since deregulation of the road to hell this industry is on.

THEN they get SHOWN the PROOF of the outcome of no legislation to protect the industry and its employees. And still nothing happens.

The problem is so deeply embedded I've all but given up on any legislation ever balancing the playing field, and that's what HAS to happen to stop airline management from repeating this devastating cycle of corporate greed.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

NWA pilots don't make much because they can't seem to stop falling backwards in order to save their pensions. When reality sets in, you might see their pilot group unify and demand higher wages. Until then, the top guys will continue to sacrifice the junior guys in order to save what has already been lost. The situation they are currently in isn't the fault of the President or our Congress. The fate of the NWA pilots will be either squandered or saved by what they are capable of achieving by themselves. The only people to blame for the NWA pilots wages is the NWA pilots. It's that simple.

-Spartacus

 

[Occam's Razor]

Were the USAirways pay cuts Northwest pilot's fault?

And United?

Delta?

______ (any other airline here)?

How about the increases at FDX...were those the fault of Northwest pilots?

I'm prepared to blame Global Warming, inflation, and Iraq on Northwest pilots...but to claim that the erosion of the NWA pilot's contract was the exclusive fault of NWA pilots is lame.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey "Spartacus" Rob,

How's that GRR commute working out?

When you jump on NWA, you always tell the captain how screwed-up you think NWA pilots are...right?

Check back in a month or so and let me know if it's going any better for you...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Take a deep breath and chill. You should live those words written by Mark Twain that you have there, instead of threatening to yank someone's jumpseat.

He never stated that NWA tanked the other airlines, you did.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Take a deep breath and chill. You should live those words written by Mark Twain that you have there, instead of threatening to yank someone's jumpseat.

Tell you what. I'll live by the words on my avatar because I put 'em up there. Rob's gonna have to live by the words he put up here too. Perhaps he'll write these comments (from post #57 on this thread) on the back of his XCM form next time he commutes to/from GRR or DTW:

"You know that given your own devices you'll sell your souls to keep your jobs,....Please don't try to make your MEC's effort out to be anything more than it is.....a failed attempt to handle a situation that they lost control of years ago....Once your top guys start looking out for your junior guys, I'll believe you might have a sincere interest in looking out for your regionals."

He never stated that NWA tanked the other airlines, you did.

I'm not afraid to tell my own pilots where I think we succeeded, and where we've failed. But I'm not an outsider (like this SWA guy) with no skin in the game...that writes this:

"...the top guys will continue to sacrifice the junior guys in order to save what has already been lost. .... The only people to blame for the NWA pilots wages is the NWA pilots. It's that simple."

Think I'll hear this from him when I fly into GRR on Wednesday?

"Hey, Captain Sell-Out...can I ride your jumpseat?"

I know he doesn't speak for all SWA pilots. He speaks for himself. The few folks on this Forum who know who I am also know that what I post here is what I've posted elsewhere under my own name...and spoken in person (although I tend to use more expletives in person). WYSIWYG.

I wonder if that's true for him?

No jihad. No jumpseat war. Just a pointed question: Why would want to ride the jumpseat of a pilot group you think is a bunch of sell-outs?

 

[Lear70]

No jihad. No jumpseat war. Just a pointed question: Why would you want to ride the jumpseat of a pilot group you think is a bunch of sell-outs?

OH! OH! I know this one...

'Cause it's the quickest way home?

Funny how people are never as ballsy in person as they are on this forum? Pretty easy to sling mud from behind the cover of anonymity.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Hey Razor,

Take a pill dude. This is a forum to voice your opinions, not have a stroke. Try drinking more and typing less, you'll live longer.

-Spartacus

 

[redflyer65]

The Northwest PILOTS had a choice as to whether they would pass that crap TA or hold out for something better. They folded. Just left me shaking my head. There was no reason to start Compass at all. It should have been kept in house at the same payscale. Unfortunately they took the first company offer. Are any of the pilots suprised that management is taking a HUGE bonus over this? The writing has been on the wall since you inked that deal.

 

[TinGoose1]

Since Occam's Razor has been so vocal about identifying another member of this board, let's all hear his real name. I don't recall hearing a valid arguement contradicting any of the statements about the TA the NWA pilots signed, only rationalization. Please identify yourself and explain exactly why your last concessionary deal created Compass and further aggrevated the whip saw within your airlinks.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Derisive . . . RECENTLY derisive.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Razor,

Now that I'm sober, I've re-read your post. Wow! If your going to threaten me, at least do it with something I need. I haven't commuted on NWA to DTW since 9-11. Driving was more reliable. Taking away my jumpseat is like taking away Christopher Reeves dancing shoes. Now if you really want to fire me up, take away my remote control. That would get me out of my lazy boy for sure. Anyway, just thought I would help with future threats.

Take care...

-Spartacus

P.S. On a serious note...after investing almost a decade of my life at XJ, at a minimum that gives me the right to have an opinion. Even though I'm gone, I still care about what happens to those still flying there. Believe it or not, you don't stop caring about your family members once you move out of the house. Now those are the last sober words your going to hear. And on that note, I'm going back to my bottle of Jack Daniels. Peace out.......

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The real comical thing is the NWA MEC decides to put off dealing with the wholly owned mesaba issue. Rather than force a confrontation now, they choose to put it off until a more strategic time. However, I would like to point out that when they finally do file the petition, NWA will have the choice of either liquidating mesaba or giving the mesaba pilots mainline seniority. Both scenarios are extremely unlikely, instead NWA will comply with the contract and compass will disappear. The pilots currently leaving other jobs to go to compass will soon find themselves out of a job. Right now, that could be tens of pilots. However, by the time ALPA gets around to it, it could be hundreds.