XJ to get 17 CRJ200's from 9E

[XJohXJ]

Eeewww....

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Double eeewwwww.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The FA's will soon vote to operate DC-9 replacements at regionals rates. They may choose the mainline over the regionals.

 

[Occam's Razor]

yes the pay rates are better at the majors, gee thats why everyone wants to go there. Oh and the chance to fly bigger planes....which means more pay again.

Sounds logical to me. Then why don't you offer to fly the DC-9's for NWA at $123/hr), which is $1/hr less than NWA pilots...but substantially more than you're getting to fly the Saab?

Wouldja?

You said it yourself..."pay rates are better" and "bigger planes".

Maybe you wouldn't, because you recognize the problem with crapping in your new condo before you move into it. But (Honesty Caps on tight, kids!) do you think other pilots might do it?

Oh and the lack of the whipsaw.

Huh? The scenario I just laid-out for you is a whipsaw! Pressure from any quarter is pressure. When management has the leverage, the pressure becomes inexorable and they get the changes they want. When I got hired in '88, the Scope limit on the Airlinks was 70-seats. Almost 20-years later it's a bit higher. The changes that got us here didn't happen all at once. They happened over time, with us winning a few, and them winning a few.

That reality will not change if/when you get hired at a major.

But I can see that in the future that the 9s are being replaced by 900's and those 175's. When the scope is at its limit, NWA will throw a carrot to the senior NWA guys and say.......here we will order 20 more 787's if you allow us to have 100 more 76 seaters at the regionals......

And we'll say, "Ha! Ha! Ha! That'll never work because our brothers at the Airlinks will recognize the adverse impact on this job at the majors that they strive for...and will refuse to fly those jets unless the pay rates and work-rules are derived directly from the mainline contract! They don't need Brand Scope to do that. They have the ability to set their own rates and work-rules right now, and they have opted to stand with us!"

See? Victory! And we'll owe it all to you. The result of that victory (thanks in advance!) will be:

• You either get more money and better rates than you currently have for those shiny new jets, or
• You get to the majors quicker because we'll need more pilots to fly those jets at our rates/rules.

those senior guys, if history repeats itself will bend over backwards to screw their junior guys.

Since you don't know what you're talking about, I'll give you a pass.

If history were to truly repeat itself at NWA, the senior guys (99% of all NWA pilots includes the "senior guys") will make the plight of the junior guys their #1 issue...just as they did in '98, when the eradication of the B-Scale was the #1 issue, even among those "senior guys" who'd never been on a B-Scale!

Everybody is getting screwed right now! We're all doing our Shaquille O'Neal impressions...sitting at home wondering, "WTF just happened? Why am I here instead in Round 2?" Hopefully...collectively...we'll only wallow in our stunned disappointment for a little longer. Then maybe we'll quit pointing fingers at each other, and get ready for the next season (when the other team doesn't get extra players on the court. Players like judges and lawmakers).

 

[Occam's Razor]

The FA's will soon vote to operate DC-9 replacements at regionals rates. They may choose the mainline over the regionals.

Does that include your wife, the flight attendant...Mr. Rainey?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Management money is tied to not having conflict after bankruptcy. I suppose the NWA pilots could legally "take it back" in a short amount of time. So what is it going to be occam, take the money or throw a bone to the airlinkers at your expense.

 

[N2264J]

YOU told us that a Single Carrier Status petition meant NWA pilots were merely asking for Mesaba and Compass pilots to be represented by ALPA. I pointed out that YOU were wrong.

Maybe I am wrong but that definition of Single Carrier petition to the NMB was given to the Comair MEC by Bill Roberts prior to the PID request in 2000.

Are you saying we shouldn't take an ALPA attorney at their word?

 

[Lear70]

Lear:

Although I truly enjoy the imagery generated by the expression "cow-toe",
I think you might have been aiming for "kowtow".

Sorry to interrupt.

Yeah, yeah... Sorry, my English language skills simply aren't up to the task today.

And Occam... seek therapy, dude. Dayum...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Management money is tied to not having conflict after bankruptcy.

Management money is already in the trough...as you well know, Mr. Rainey. The "conflict" of which you speak (and why do I keep hearing "Helter Skelter" in the background?) is avoided to the extent we have a contract with a significant duration.

I suppose the NWA pilots could legally "take it back" in a short amount of time.

We'll get a bunch of it back...thanks to you. As you have consistently proven, you are incapable of staffing this airline properly enough to deliver the cashflow you put in the Disclosure Statement. The Board and the investors will want to know how it got that way...and who is responsible. That's where you come in...or, more accurately...you go out.

Sic semper tyrannus!

Your replacement will have to cut a deal with us for some staffing relief to get those augmentees and F/O IP's trained. We'll get our quids and you'll be working somewhere else...with 2,000 worthless NWA business cards with "Vice President" on them.

So what is it going to be occam, take the money or throw a bone to the airlinkers at your expense.

1. Get rid of you.
2. Improve the "hot spots" in the contract.
3. Single Carrier Status (that'll be the end of your sucessor's honeymoon here)

Better get in line at the good printer, Mr. Rainey! That resume ain't gonna print itself!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Maybe I am wrong but that definition of Single Carrier petition to the NMB...

There's no "maybe" about it.

It's also not the only assertion you've made that is utterly wrong.

Are you saying we shouldn't take an ALPA attorney at their word?

Nah. I'm pretty sure he gave you the correct dope. Giving the RJDC good information is like feeding a chimp a nice banana. Even if it's good for him, you know he'll just fling it back at you after he's digested it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Will the flow-backs be to regional captain or to the street?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Will the flow-backs be to regional captain or to the street?

NWA flow-backs will be to VP-Flight Ops...the bottom of the managment barrel.

(Use the parchment style paper for the resume...wonky HR dorks love that look!)

 

[Jester119]

Memphis Commercial Appeal-Newspaper about Pinnacle

Pinnacle will partner with Delta

Memphis-based airline inks 10-year deal for regional routes

By Jane Roberts
May 1, 2007

In December, Pinnacle Airlines Corp. will begin flying Delta Air Lines flights out of its hubs, capping a deal in the works for months and positioning Pinnacle to operate from a more diverse platform.

Monday, the day Delta emerged from bankruptcy, Pinnacle said it had signed a 10-year deal with Delta to fly feeder routes on 16 76-seat regional jets Pinnacle is in the process of purchasing.

"We look forward to a long-term partnership with Delta, and we appreciate the confidence that they have placed with us," said Phil Trenary, president and chief executive.

The planes -- Canadair Regional Jets-900s, built by Bombardier Aerospace -- list for $34 million apiece


They are configured to offer first-class and coach seating, a first for Delta's regional flying partners, and part of its post-bankruptcy strategy to be streamlined and facile.

Memphis-based Pinnacle will receive the planes over eight months, starting in November.

"We needed to really make sure we had cost-competitive regional flying that meets the flexibility needed by our network," said Lisa Gagnon, Delta spokeswoman.

Last year, Delta sent out requests for bids for its regional flying. With the Pinnacle announcement, it now has nine carriers -- including wholly owned subsidiary Comair -- on its Delta Connection team. They shuttle passengers from feeder cities to Delta's hubs in New York, Atlanta, Salt Lake City and Cincinnati.

"We need to make sure we have the best flying at the lowest cost. Pinnacle met our needs and our cost needs," Gagnon said.

Having more partners and more planes lets Delta shrink and grow quickly to meet the needs of the marketplace, a lesson it learned in bankruptcy.
While the terms of the deal were not announced, Delta will sell the seats, provide the marketing and ground handling. Pinnacle will be responsible for the rest.

"What we're known for at Pinnacle is performance," Trenary said. "No one can touch us on performance. That's what we have to sell."

Pinnacle expects it will hire about 30 flight attendants to staff the Delta flights. But because the planes will be based in other hubs, the airline's local employee count won't change.

The chance to diversify comes at an opportune time for Pinnacle, which until this year flew solely as an Airlink partner for Northwest Airlines. In that arrangement, Northwest provided the planes, fuel and bookings, and targeted a 10 percent operating margin.

When Pinnacle signed a new deal with Northwest in late December, the price of its stock jumped 57 percent after trading around $6 for much of the year.
Although the new deal allowed Pinnacle to continue flying 139 of Northwest's 50-seat regional jets, it cut the pay almost in half with the caveat that Pinnacle could seek other partners.

Within weeks, Pinnacle announced it had paid $20 million for Colgan Air, the family-owned commuter based in the Northeast with contracts with US Airways, Continental and United airlines.

A month later, in early February, Pinnacle announced it was buying 15 74-seat Bombardier Q400s for a 10-year contract it had just signed with Continental Airlines out of its expanded hub in Newark, N.J.

"The diversification strategy at Pinnacle is coming along quite nicely," said Doug Abbey at The Velocity Group, an aviation consulting firm in Washington.
"Delta had any number of potential partners that can operate these airplanes." Pinnacle won the bid, because "it runs a highly regarded and competitive company."

Trenary said, "This is huge for Pinnacle. It's bigger planes and a new customer.

"The affirmation is what our employees have been looking for. It's so so important to our people. They've worked hard for this. We will be growing and hiring."

The CRJ-900 makes the transition easier because it is similar to the CRJ-200s Pinnacle flies for Northwest, including that more than 90 percent of its parts are the same.

"It's not the same teething pains of a brand-new plane. Pinnacle will be able to integrate it immediately. And a more common fleet costs less to maintain. It's a very productive way to grow," Abbey said.

The news acts as a counterbalance to the contraction Pinnacle experienced late last week when Northwest said it would be reassigning 15 50-seat planes to wholly owned subsidiary Mesaba Airlines because Pinnacle had not met the March 31 deadline for getting a deal with its pilots.

Because the planes were not committed to Pinnacle on a long-term basis, Pinnacle is entitled to the full amount of its unsecured $42.5 million claim.
Pilot union spokesman Wakefield Gordon doubts the Delta deal will do anything to "push the labor agreement to a conclusion.
"But I will say that management did a good job of putting together a strategic deal on this. They gave planes with an OK-profitability back to Northwest and got cash that allowed them to make the Delta deal. That's good strategic decision-making."


Link to Above http://http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/business/article/0,1426,MCA_440_5513722,00.html

 

[NuGuy]

NWA flow-backs will be to VP-Flight Ops...the bottom of the managment barrel.

(Use the parchment style paper for the resume...wonky HR dorks love that look!)

Heyas Occam,

I understand that if you have the watermark upside down on your resume' it gets sh!tcanned right off the bat.

I will take a minor exception to an above post. Sure the scope was more lax in 1988 at 70 seats, but look at the lift available. The only airframes in that seat range were something along the line of Convairs , which NWA just got done parking, and RJs weren't even a glimer in someone's eye. With that scope, they COULD have outsourced the DC-9-10s, but back in the day there really weren't that many competent "regional" DC-9 operators out there.

The real scope issue shouldn't have been concentrating on seats, but rather the range/lift/speed equation. If they want to outsource a 30 seat jet to the coast or a 50 seat ATR to Rochester, fine, but set it up so the mainline captures the "fat" part of the curve.

I think the era of the senior guys running things is at an end. The pilot group is POed, and the knuckleheads fighting the TDC are only pissing gasoline on the fire. If the "grantor trust" issue is any indication, the pilot group is in a "ready, fire, aim" kind of mood, and one more misstep by the powers that be will make things unconfortable.

Nu

 

[xjhawk]

I am happr for 9E about getting those new planes, I would hate to take opportunity away from anyone. Oh and by the way, in my forseeable future I do not think I will step foot in a 900. Saab pay for me for some time yet I would think.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Sure the scope was more lax in 1988 at 70 seats, but look at the lift available. The only airframes in that seat range were something along the line of Convairs , which NWA just got done parking, and RJs weren't even a glimer in someone's eye. With that scope, they COULD have outsourced the DC-9-10s, but back in the day there really weren't that many competent "regional" DC-9 operators out there.

Not totally correct. The contract back then mentioned the DC-9 by type. It was a protected mainline aircraft. The actual language was "70-seats, over 70,000 MGTOW, or the DC-9."

My point was that our Scope has undergone several changes...in both directions. At one point (March, '98) the 4 Continental LOA's restricted all CAL-affiliated RJ's. Our Scope changes have a direct relationship with the amount of leverage we have...or management has..at the time of negotiations.

The real scope issue shouldn't have been concentrating on seats, but rather the range/lift/speed equation. If they want to outsource a 30 seat jet to the coast or a 50 seat ATR to Rochester, fine, but set it up so the mainline captures the "fat" part of the curve.

I think our Scope should simply put all NWA flying on the same list...then let us carve-out segments on a case-by-case basis if/when we're in the mood to give relief.

I think the era of the senior guys running things is at an end. The pilot group is POed, and the knuckleheads fighting the TDC are only pissing gasoline on the fire. If the "grantor trust" issue is any indication, the pilot group is in a "ready, fire, aim" kind of mood, and one more misstep by the powers that be will make things unconfortable.

TDC is a crime! Shoulda been done within seconds of Bush signing the Pension Reform Act! A simple "review clause" in the MEC resolution could have allowed the MEC to revisit the decision and the formula every 12-months. But so far, they've done NOTHING! That is unacceptable.

The Grantor Trust is a good idea handled poorly. It was discussed by the MEC in December (yes...5 months ago!), but they did NOTHING. Then they wait until the Claim Sale window is closed to announce their "plan"? I'm the opposite of "impressed".

The junior/senior chant is tired, false, and harmful. No such creature. There is a strong perception of it, especially when the MEC waits so long to pull the trigger on the TDC...but the real cause of our grief has nothing to do with the strata in our seniority list.

 

[sf3boy]

Then I won't see any MSA or PCL pilots interviewing at NWA later this year?

Care to wager on that?

There must be something there, else we wouldn't have a need to protect it.



Then we're all agreed! There is no threat. No Airlink pilot is willing to fly the DC-9 for $123/hr. That's settled.

Glad to hear it!

Don't get me wrong, the DC-9 pilots make way more money that the CRJ and Saab pilots. Of course there will be interviewers. And they won't be working for anything less if hired at NWA.....until your senior pilots decide they will for them. BTW, you forget to mention that one has to work for a decade before that illustrious pay kicks in. Year 10 757 FO will earn ballpark $110k. No wonder so many of your furloughs told NW to go suck eggs and are at fractionals or selling cars. This is the real reason that XJ and 9E guys will be interviewing.

 

[Occam's Razor]

And they won't be working for anything less if hired at NWA.....until your senior pilots decide they will for them.

Interesting observation! And by "observation" I mean an observation in the sense that a hallucination is "observed".

Since you know so much about NWA's demographics, please tell me where on a 5,000 pilot list the junior/senior line is drawn?

Is it 2,500? 1,500? Be prepared to defend your answer against the data from the membership ratification vote on the new contract.

My theory is that junior pilots are more of a threat to lowered pay rates than senior pilots because the pilots who would poach your smaller aircraft flying for less are all "junior" in the sense that they aren't on your list. Would there be a concern about the erosion of 100-seat pay rates if there were no pilots willing to fly those aircraft for anything less than the formula rate?

I believe there are pilots who'd fly our DC-9's for a buck less an hour. What do you think?

No wonder so many of your furloughs told NW to go suck eggs and are at fractionals or selling cars.

Got any numbers? How many have accepted recall and how many have bypassed? How many came back then went on Mil Leave? How many died while furloughed? How many lost their medicals while furloughed? How many are waiting until they're a little more senior before they return (which, by being "senior", they instantly become the source of evil in sf3boy World).

 

[sf3boy]

Senior was a bad choice. Majority would have been better. When the "majority" in NWAPLA decides to the DC-9 pilots will fly for less money, then the new hires will fly for $123/hour. I notice that you didn't have a wise crack about the amount of tenure it takes to make such good money. THAT is the reason that the few furloughed guys I know said that they have already turned down the recall. Total numbers????? No clue. The ones I know.....100%.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Fair enough. "Majority" it is.

As it should be. (Give me a fairer alternative, and we'll talk!)

The amount of longevity it takes to make "good money" is a moving target. I checked-out as a DC-9 captain here at 7-years and 9-months. In '99 I gave IOE to pilots hired in late '94...4.5-years. It varies because our bases vary, and our fleet status varies. Parking 20 DC-10s and 20 B747s in 2000 had a bit of an impact on the rate everyone moved up to "good money". From what I understand, that is not a phenomena unique to NWA. Can you confirm?

All furloughed NWA pilots have been recalled. Not all have returned...and a number that have immediately went on Mil Leave.

Every furloughed pilot was given a choice. I can't rationalize each individuals decision...but I can say, with a high degree of professional certainty, that YOU don't know all the reasons.