XJ to get 17 CRJ200's from 9E

[Lear70]

However, I would like to point out that when they finally do file the petition, NWA will have the choice of either liquidating mesaba or giving the mesaba pilots mainline seniority. Both scenarios are extremely unlikely, instead NWA will comply with the contract and compass will disappear.

This tells me you are firmly seated in MIDDLE management (and not on the financial end of the building), simply because you have no understanding of the market forces behind simply "shutting down compass".

First, Northwest negotiated a sweetheart deal while in Bankruptcy for all those large RJ's going to Compass. Northwest needs that RJ as a DC-9 replacement moving forward to gain a cost advantage over the other legacy carriers. Those leases have a hefty penalty to just "cancel" them.

Northwest is prohibited from sub-leasing them to another red-tail carrier because of Scope, so they'd have to sub-lease to another airline, and what executive in their right mind would help their competition get earlier delivery of needed operational assets?

Second, they're not going to liquidate Mesaba... too much money to lose. They MIGHT spin it off sooner rather than later, especially if they can get them firmly into the jet age with PCL's 50-seaters (most or all of them) over the next 2 or 3 years, but liquidate? No.

Lastly, seniority integration is the only COST-EFFECTIVE way for Northwest to deal with it. The longer the MEC waits, the better the financials protect the shut-down of compass and the more money NWA stands to lose from a loss of an IPO of Mesaba down the road.

Pop quiz, hotshot: How much money did NWA make with PCL's spinoff? Now adjust for inflation. Now tell me NWA is going to pass that money up or try to sell the goods before they're fully ripe for the picking.

When given a choice between liquidating Mesaba (a wholly-owned), giving them mainline seniority, or liquidating Compass (and defaulting on millions in leases OR selling those lucrative leases to their competition), giving them mainline seniority is the only choice that doesn't cost millions (especially if they integrate seniority now before they hire off the street, make the deal that they start at year 1 NWA rates (they'll still go for it to get that mainline seniority number), and replace the high-seniority MSA list with lower-time guys, thus making the MSA balance sheet look even better for an IPO with lower labor costs).

Do the math. I thought that's what you management guys were "supposed" to be good at?

No wonder these airlines keep going bankrupt. My grandmother makes better money decisions that most of you clowns...

 

[timmay]

Razor,

Now those are the last sober words your going to hear. And on that note, I'm going back to my bottle of Jack Daniels. Peace out.......

Keep livin the dream spartacus.

 

[DoinTime]

However, I would like to point out that when they finally do file the petition, NWA will have the choice of either liquidating mesaba or giving the mesaba pilots mainline seniority.

Option #3: Mesaba gets operationally merged with Compass and the two pilot groups get held apart with fences working under their respective contracts A'La USAir/AmWest and Skywest/ASA. Operational efficiencies would be streamlined and the resultant company would be worth significantly more than the acquisition costs in an IPO.

This scenario would allow NWA to maintain super seniority at Compass and allow the Mesaba pilot group to operate aircraft larger than 50 seats. Many indicators are already pointing to this type of "teamwork" between Mesaba and Compass.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

First, Northwest negotiated a sweetheart deal while in Bankruptcy for all those large RJ's going to Compass. Northwest needs that RJ as a DC-9 replacement moving forward to gain a cost advantage over the other legacy carriers. Those leases have a hefty penalty to just "cancel" them.

Northwest is prohibited from sub-leasing them to another red-tail carrier because of Scope, so they'd have to sub-lease to another airline, and what executive in their right mind would help their competition get earlier delivery of needed operational assets?

There are opt out clauses for the ERJ and not the CRJ, so yes NWA would have to accept the CRJ, i'll give you that. The 9's simply can't be replaced by a 76 seat jet, they need a replacement as well as compliance with a soon to be established narrowbody floor. All of these are still leverage items. Also I'm sure if XJ and compass merged, the Xj pilots would allow a separate compass list and not file a PID.

 

[Ridgeback]

Also consider,

NWA has a vested interest in Mesaba's staffing, i.e. they don't want and can't afford another 9E. With Compass getting hundreds if not thousands of apps with guys that have thousands of hours and several types one has to ask "what does Compass have that Mesaba does not"? HMMMMM, A NWA flow through number.

From NWA's prospective a very cheap way to attract pilots to Mesaba and cure any staffing problem that will arise from this growth.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Also consider,

NWA has a vested interest in Mesaba's staffing, i.e. they don't want and can't afford another 9E. With Compass getting hundreds if not thousands of apps with guys that have thousands of hours and several types one has to ask "what does Compass have that Mesaba does not"? HMMMMM, A NWA flow through number.

From NWA's prospective a very cheap way to attract pilots to Mesaba and cure any staffing problem that will arise from this growth.

Staffing isn't going to be a problem very long. There will be an over-surplus once things settle in.

 

[DoinTime]

With Compass getting hundreds if not thousands of apps with guys that have thousands of hours and several types one has to ask "what does Compass have that Mesaba does not"?

What Compass has is the opportunity to be high seniority in the left seat right out of training. Once those opportunities go away so will the pool of qualified applicants. Its amazing to watch the types of applicants that come in when upgrades at 9E go down to the bottom of the list.

The notion of a flow through (which is still unresolved and unlikely to carry through after NWA sells the airline) is offset by the elimination of any kind of job/seniority protections while at Compass.

NWA has a vested interest in Mesaba's staffing, i.e. they don't want and can't afford another 9E.

Staffing at 9E actaully accounts for a small number of cancellations. NWA wanted us to take delivery of 15 new airplanes, staff them, and operate a full schedule over the coarse of a single month with less than two months notice. We were not able to meet NWA needs and nobody else could have either. Mesaba had this same problem in the late '90's when they were taking delivery of the Avros, their fleet of Saabs, and all of the airplanes NWA stripped from Express I.

 

[DoinTime]

Staffing isn't going to be a problem very long. There will be an over-surplus once things settle in.

YPF = clueless on current pilot hiring market.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

YPF = clueless on current pilot hiring market.

We are short staffing to prevent additional furloughs or the recalls to get furloughed again.

 

[DoinTime]

The post was about Mesaba and Compass staffing not NWA.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

MESA -> out
9E <-> colgan <-> bigsky
mesaba <-> comair
skywest <-> asa

25% capacity reduction due to soft demand covers the lack of pilots at these airlines.

 

[profit]

Question for Occam's Razor,

How does the NWA contract look with respect to wage recovery/snapbacks in the coming years?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Question for Occam's Razor,

How does the NWA contract look with respect to wage recovery/snapbacks in the coming years?

As long as the virus is on the hard drive...not too bad.

We didn't touch staffing (24.B.2/3) nor the Advanced Position Award (APA)system. That means Crew Planning tell each pilot exactly where they will be 4-months in advance...while the Marketing Dept tells Crew Planning the staffing needs 35-days in advance.

Our management has NEVER figured out how to do it correctly. To handle screw-ups (such as the one we're in right now due to the late start and low rate of recalls) management will have to come to us for help. It will cost them. The price we extract will be a measure of our contract repair.

Historically, the largest gains we've gotten have come from leverage gained when management needed our cooperation. Time-and-a-half pay was gained when they screwed up staffing in '95 and '96....mid-term of that contract. The 10.25% pay increase was in '03, while other airlines were going bankrupt or taking large cuts. We got the raise because management needed "Labor peace" in order to refinance the Revolver. We got the 4 CAL Scope LOA's when management wanted to grab control of CAL.

Things will continue to happen in the industry. Our management, including YPF, will continue to screw it up. Luckily, both of those are certain.

The only variable will be how unified and focused our pilot group will be at the time. It takes emotionless focus to seize opportunities when they pop up.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's much cheaper to get time concessions for extra pay rather than hire someone new. Of course you could just give it to us like the southwest pilots.

 

[Lear70]

It's much cheaper to get time concessions for extra pay rather than hire someone new. Of course you could just give it to us like the southwest pilots.

The NWA pilots are going to "give" it to you, alright...

Just like you gave it to them: hard, deep, and without the common courtesy of lube or a reach-around.

Why would they treat YOU like Southwest pilots treat their management when YOU, as NWA management don't treat the pilots like SWA management treats theirs?

You don't get one without the other. Start treating your employees like real people and not disposable liabilities and you might actually have an employee who gives a rat fu*k whether you can staff or not.

25% capacity reduction due to soft demand covers the lack of pilots at these airlines.

No, it doesn't.

You're only getting a capacity reduction at PCL because of the whipsaw you deliberately set up (and don't deny you know you were going to yank those RJ's in advance if they didn't sign for concessions).

NOW PCL is adequately staffed... for the first time in the last 3 years. That will fix itself, however, as they continue to lose all their CA's to LCC's, the Majors, and NJA.

About this time next year PCL will be in the same boat they were in last month: unable to staff their operation because of lack of qualified pilots.

It's going to stay that way until the majors stop hiring, then another year while the staffing stabilizes, and it's going to happen at every regional.

You need to get your head out of your cubicle and ask some people that actually know a little bit about regional airline staffing problems in the current market.

Or you could just go to the AIR, Inc career fair in ATL next weekend and watch the recruiters for all the regionals practically BEG for pilots, offer $2,000 to $5,000+ signing bonuses, and still have NO ONE lined up at their tables.

Come over to the AirTran training center and say Hi. I'll be working the tours Saturday night.

 

[N2264J]

No..I'm asserting that YOU don't know what you're talking about!

YOU told us that a Single Carrier Status petition meant NWA pilots were merely asking for Mesaba and Compass pilots to be represented by ALPA. I pointed out that YOU were wrong.

So tell me, was Woerth knowingly misleading our attorney under oath or is he just ignorant?

Haber: Is it in fact management that defines when the merger takes place?
Woerth: Managements usually announce mergers, yes.
Haber: I mean in circumstances where it is where one is talking about operational integration and other indicia of that sort, but where there is not a formal legal merger?
Woerth: If there is a merger it is usually a management-announced merger and their plan to integrate is known to the public and to us and that is how mergers occur.
Haber: But ALPA merger policy is defined for something that is less formalistic?
Woerth: No, it is to recognize when it is a rumor of a merger and an actual merger, to distinguish the rumors of a merger and the likelihood of a real merger taking place.
Haber: So, then why would ALPA seek in some instances single carrier determinations from the National Mediation Board despite management's objection?
Woerth: Single carrier representation has nothing to do with mergers. It has that to with representational status of the unions.
Haber: But single representation would be another way of getting what you advocated; right?
Woerth: They are not related at all.
Haber: Why not?
Woerth: Because it just has to do with who is the collective bargaining representative in a single carrier case; teamsters, ALPA, independent. A single carrier just describes who is going to be the bargaining representative.
Haber: At Mesa, for example, ALPA represented all carriers involved, so what was the rationale for seeking National Mediation Board single carrier determination?
MR. MIGLIORE: Object to the form of the question; assumes facts that are not in evidence.
THE WITNESS: I don't know why we sought single carrier determination.​

http://www.rjdefense.com/2006/woerth_xscript.pdf

 

[Occam's Razor]

So tell me, was Woerth knowingly misleading our attorney under oath or is he just ignorant?

Dunno. You posted a half-page of an extensive deposition. Was the statement later corrected, modified, or addressed in follow-up statements?

If your Labor-savvy lawyer (snicker) knew what he was talking about, he wouldn't need to ask the question, would he?

Comments made by the former President of ALPA prior to the judge dismissing 90% of your stupid claims doesn't change the fact that the NWA MEC doesn't need to file anything to have Mesaba represented by ALPA. That's your assertion...and it's wrong. You know it, and I know it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Occam,

Can you post any link to your information on "single carrier" with the NMB? Everything I have seen from ALPA and the NMB states that "single carrier" only deals with the "who represents" part of the equation. Can you site any examples of single carrier petitions between groups who were represented by the same union?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

from inside XJ

No one on the inside other than the MEC (and they're not talking much lately) knows anything at XJ.

But I know this - ALPA has represented Mesaba since the early to mid 90's (before me). The NWA pilot group in their contract set representation (ALPA) and pay rates for Compass as part of the agreement they eventually voted in. NO pilot at Compass got a chance or choice in representation. So if whatever your talking about concerns who represents the pilots, your wasting your time. ALPA is the answer.

The REAL issue and I am probably wrong is the combining of the seniority lists of the three companies. How, when, where I have no idea. I am not even sure why. But I think it will most likely benefit mainline more than XJ pilots. Time will tell. I was just happy to go the last year and half employed.

Also, I would like to say that growth for us at the cost of Pinnacle isn't what ANYBODY wanted at Mesaba. No one at XJ feels entitled to those planes or flying. As a side note, I am coming up on 4 years with the company. Even with 36 crj705's, 17 crj200's, and 49 SAAB I still can't see an upgrade before 2 more years, unless we get more of something.

Our contract which I did vote for is way better than what is portrayed on flightinfo. Granted some of the hourly rates are a little less than some companies, but our work rules more than make up for the paycut. A number of XJ pilots who went to other airlines say that our rules are better than there mainline companies (Continental).

I don't find myself thinking that mainline was obliged to give us more flying and I don't think we are anymore entitled to the flying than anyone else. I wish the mainline pilots would learn more about the XJ situation because most cockpits I road in seemed to have no idea the criminal situation going on at XJ. More than once I was told I had to give up my share like the mainline guys did. Well after all the math I was going to lose about half of my 26k. I spent a lot of jumpseat time trying to explain I can't live on 12000 a year.

Anyway this thread was irrating me and I thought I would share what is actually being said at XJ -nothing.

 

[Andrew_VT]

As a side note, I am coming up on 4 years with the company. Even with 36 crj705's, 17 crj200's, and 49 SAAB I still can't see an upgrade before 2 more years, unless we get more of something.

Really? 2 more years? wow this kind of contradicts other things I'm reading. Can you elaborate for me (I'm thinking of Mesaba), thanks.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

My MEC Speaks for Me! (Just not to me!)

No one on the inside other than the MEC (and they're not talking much lately) knows anything at XJ.

Yeah, didn't we have some issues with some MAIR letter or something? Gosh, I swear there was some big to-do. . . . Lawyers and judges or something. Musta been my imagination.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Xj

I am just under 500 seniority. At 5 crews per planes its simple math
36+17+49=102 planes = about 500 captains.

It will take about 2 years to get all the 705's so you tell me when to realistically expect upgrade. Attrition and more aircraft are the only variables that MAY accellerate the process. Then I expect a pretty bad reserve schedule in MEM. NOPE!

Yes the MAIR letter was supposed to be in court in the week of April 20th or 25th. Nobody in the MEC will answer email or phone or ALPA board posting or calls on the subject.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Can you post any link to your information on "single carrier" with the NMB?

Yup.

I can also let the RJDC toads continue to feed $$ to Haber while he "researches" the issue...and advises them that he can't find a conclusive definition.

I choose Option B.

Everything I have seen from ALPA and the NMB states that "single carrier" only deals with the "who represents" part of the equation.

Wow! (And by "Wow!" I mean "who cares?") Merger "expert" N2264J tells us it simply means ALPA is considering petitioning the NMB to have ALPA represent a carrier it's represented for decades. If you can't tell, I think this is about the coolest thing I've ever seen on FI.

He and his cabal of victims are angry! They're militant! They're in italics! And not just any italics...but extra slanty italics to indicate they are really angry.

The Single-Carrier status petition issue simply illustrates that they,

A. Don't know what they're talking about.
B. Have hired incompetent counsel.
C. Probably have extra-small weiners.

Can you site any examples of single carrier petitions between groups who were represented by the same union?

I appreciate your thirst for knowledge (I recommend you drink at the Fountain of Knowledge instead of just gargling), but if you think I'm gonna provide any information to the know-it-all RJDC bumblers...you're wrong.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Occam, you might've spoken to this topic on other threads, but in this thread, you've mostly been dookie-slinging and name calling.

I don't know much about the RJDC and ALPA, but you, sir, seem mighty belligerent.

I appreciate your thirst for knowledge (I recommend you drink at the Fountain of Knowledge instead of just gargling), but if you think I'm gonna provide any information to the know-it-all RJDC bumblers...you're wrong.

And that's why we call it Flight Info, folks.

 

[N2264J]

If your Labor-savvy lawyer (snicker) knew what he was talking about, he wouldn't need to ask the question, would he?

I guess you realize that lawyers sometimes ask questions during depositions for purposes other than their own professional education, don't you?

Comments made by the former President of ALPA...doesn't change the fact that the NWA MEC doesn't need to file anything to have Mesaba represented by ALPA. That's your assertion...and it's wrong. You know it, and I know it.

You know, all the messages between us are still here if someone wanted to take the time to go back and read them. You are aware of that, aren't you?​

My asserton is that the NWA MEC needs a mechanism to bring Compass into ALPA. The NMB isn't bound to the NWA contract so a single carrier petition is filed which would include Mesaba since they're a wholly owned subsidary. It has nothing to do with a single list according to the former president of the ALPA and his legal staff.​

It is amusing, however, at the amount of time it took you to throw your buddy Duane under the bus in a effort to cling to what's left of your credibility with the Mesaba pilots.​

It must be situational Semper Fi.​

 

[PCL_128]

My asserton is that the NWA MEC needs a mechanism to bring Compass into ALPA.

Guess again. Shouldn't you be writing another check to that arrogant twit Haber?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yup.

I can also let the RJDC toads continue to feed $$ to Haber while he "researches" the issue...and advises them that he can't find a conclusive definition.

I choose Option B.



Wow! (And by "Wow!" I mean "who cares?") Merger "expert" N2264J tells us it simply means ALPA is considering petitioning the NMB to have ALPA represent a carrier it's represented for decades. If you can't tell, I think this is about the coolest thing I've ever seen on FI.

He and his cabal of victims are angry! They're militant! They're in italics! And not just any italics...but extra slanty italics to indicate they are really angry.

The Single-Carrier status petition issue simply illustrates that they,

A. Don't know what they're talking about.
B. Have hired incompetent counsel.
C. Probably have extra-small weiners.



I appreciate your thirst for knowledge (I recommend you drink at the Fountain of Knowledge instead of just gargling), but if you think I'm gonna provide any information to the know-it-all RJDC bumblers...you're wrong.

You can't win this argument now.... either ALPA has knowingly mislead the ASA and CMR MECs by advising that single carrier petitions are only for representation, or you are wrong and ALPA advised ASA and CMR correctly..... either way you look bad....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Guess again. Shouldn't you be writing another check to that arrogant twit Haber?

OK PCL, what say you? ALPA has advised the ASA and CMR MECs that a single carrier petition is only for the purpose of determining a bargaining agent. If both carriers are already ALPA, then it does no good. Occam disagrees and believes it is the first step to merging.

Would you care to enlighten us with your understanding? Is PCL going to file a single carrier petition for Colgan? What is ALPA telling PCL?

 

[PCL_128]

OK PCL, what say you? ALPA has advised the ASA and CMR MECs that a single carrier petition is only for the purpose of determining a bargaining agent. If both carriers are already ALPA, then it does no good. Occam disagrees and believes it is the first step to merging.

Your buddy N2264J stated that Compass isn't ALPA until a single carrier petition is filed. ALPA is already recognized as the official bargaining agent of NWA. I know the NWA ALPA rep that led the negotiations for the Compass CBA. My understanding is that the NWA MEC is considering the possibility of running Compass as part of the NWA MEC rather than have it as a separate unit.

Is PCL going to file a single carrier petition for Colgan? What is ALPA telling PCL?

Sorry, but PCL ALPA's bargaining strategy is not something that we broadcast publicly. Neither is our confidential legal counsel from ALPA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Your buddy N2264J stated that Compass isn't ALPA until a single carrier petition is filed. ALPA is already recognized as the official bargaining agent of NWA. I know the NWA ALPA rep that led the negotiations for the Compass CBA. My understanding is that the NWA MEC is considering the possibility of running Compass as part of the NWA MEC rather than have it as a separate unit.

Your buddy Occam said that a single carrier petition is the first step in merging carriers and that the NWA MEC was persuing it with NWA/Compass/Mesaba. Others, including ALPA national, have pointed out that a single carrier petition is only for determining the bargaining agent, and that if all carriers are already represented by the same agent, a single carrier petition does no good.

Enlighten us.... what is a single carrier petition for? Does it do any good for the NWA MEC to file one if NWA, Compass, and Mesaba are already represented by ALPA?