Air Tran gives 3 year old the boot

[BVT94]

Thanks Rez for your post. While I sometimes have a hard time expressing my thoughts, you seemed to have understood what I was hinting at and summed them up nicely.

So true about the child not understanding the logic behind spanking. Especially if their parents are telling them that hitting is wrong....so either they won't believe or they may later conclude that hitting is ok if you are hitting someone smaller than you. Or hitting is ok when done out of ?love? (as in spousal abuse or the parenting of the next generation). Even up through my pregnancy I thought spanking was ok because I turned out okay. Ok, so I have to stop myself from hitting someone or something when I get really mad. Oh, yeah, and why did I get in fist fights with my brothers? Didn't I believe my parents when they said hitting was wrong, right after they spanked me? Now when I get anger, I try to model better behavior, like giving myself a time out or going running. I never give time outs to my daughter, but I try to teach her ways to handle her anger and frustration, which are unavoidable emotions child face.

Oh, and the sparing the rod quote from the Bible? One of the many misunderstood quotes. The rod actually refers to the staff that the shepherds would carry to *guide* their sheep. It was not used to hit, but to provide guidance. Just look up the original hebrew word.

Capt Megadeth, I was an airline pilot until I had my daughter. I fully intended to go back, not realizing how committed I would soon become to being there for my kid. My husband is also an airline pilot, so it was impossible to juggle our schedules and have any kind of real life together as a family. If you ever want someone to talk to who has been there, send me an email.

 

[BVT94]

Double post

 

[FmrFreightDog]

I'm happy for all you folks that want/have chillins'. It is not and never was for me. It scares the pi$$ out of me frankly. I just see things differently. I see mothers struggling in the stores with their kids with an unhappy nasty looking face on them. That's rewarding? To me, there is nothing noble about it. To those who ask me "Well, who is going to take care of you when you get old"? Oh, great point, I better go out and have a child now.......I don't know, some hot nurse? Do you guys (who've moved away from there parents) take care of your elderly parents? Believe it or not, kids are molded by there friends, not there parents. You can give them the best up bringing in the world, and as soon as they have that first beer, or smoke that first fatty, it's all a crap shoot. Good luck!

No disrespect, but since you don't have children you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to properly raising a child. True, peers have far more influence over kids than parents do. However, good parents subject their children to the right kinds of peers. I do have children, and I actually understand what it takes to raise one correctly.

If you ever have kids, you'll understand what I'm talking about. You are right about one thing though. People who do not truly want children have no business having them.

 

[Lear70]

Finally, at some point in time, when we were toddlers, we were the screaming child all of you are so quick to condem.......

D*mn right, and guess what I got when I threw a tantrum?

I was asked nicely in a loving way to stop; if it continued, I was warned to stop or I would get a spanking; if it didn't stop, I got spanked. Period.

If I DID stop, I was positively rewarded with loving words and praise, which is the OTHER side of the coin of physical punishment.

You may argue with this method of parenting, but my children are loving, happy, well-adjusted, and (most of the time) very well-behaved and polite. They don't live in fear, they've never been abused, and they love AND RESPECT us as parents.

That is DIRECT PROOF that your assertions that this parenting method doesn't work are WRONG.

Deal with it.

Traveling with children is very difficult. Often it is a mother alone. If you can offer help it would take a heavy burden off their shoulders. Help with a bag, stroller, directions, entertaining a child, whatever... Most traveling parents are very conscience of thier kids presence and behavior to others in a pressurized tube. Perhaps we can be a litte more conscience as well. (I am not saying the this family should not have been kept on the flight, rather, the strayed comments afterwards...)

Do you have proof that the employees didn't do this? That they were NOT helped?

You're adding situational information that you have NO direct evidence of into a thread where it doesn't belong.

Talk about "strayed comments..."

Why would you punish or cause physical pain to a child if they cannot determine right from wrong? If you are spanking them how can they comprehend what the spanking is for? Sure you modified thier behavior out of fear and pain. They have no clue why.

Wrong answer. They sure as H*LL know why they're getting a spanking when the spanking is done immediately and quickly after the bad behavior when you've tried everything else to get them to stop.

Do you actually have children of your own?

If you do, then you already know the answer to this question: because sometimes positive reinforcement isn't enough for a child that's so deep into a tantrum they are unreachable OR they simply don't understand anything else AND DISCIPLINE IS REQUIRED.

If you have a child who is acting SO badly that they are uncontrollable, you HAVE to do something. You cannot just sit there and let them continue to hurt or damage people or property around them; to do nothing would be COMPLETELY irresponsible.

Why go to the bathroom? Why not spank in full public view?

Because you're not trying to humiliate the child, you're trying to modify their behavior through the only means left when you have exhausted ALL your other options.

Embarrassing them is not the answer, that causes all sorts of emotional and psychological issues later in life.

Your second to the last paragraph is contridicting... If kids don't understand logic they how can they understand spankings... they are just repsonding to fear and physical pain. You'll get the result (and satisfaction of the behavior change and effectiveness of spanking) but that doesn't mean the child understands it.....

It's not a contradiction; I KNOW you're a lot smarter than that, don't insult my intelligence.

Here's a quick overview for others who really DON'T understand the difference:

The first time you were working with a hammer and slammed your thumb, did you slow down and pay more attention once it quit hurting? I'm sure you did.

Did you need a Physics course to understand the relationship between the moving hammer and your stationary thumb? Did you need a degree in Biology to understand why the pain receptors in your body operated the way they do?

Of course not. You were doing something, you got hurt, you changed the way you were doing that activity so you didn't get hurt again.

In a lot of ways, that's the ONLY way a child understands things: in terms of good or bad, black or white, Yes or No. So if you can't explain it to them, the only way to get them to stop is to act. You ask them not to do something, then you TELL them not to do something, then you SHOW them they MUST not do something.

Again, if you have a better way, then by all means write a book, you'll be a Millionaire. Otherwise, I'll continue doing the best parenting job I can and, on the rare occasion it's required, my child will receive a spanking. It's not fun when you have to do that, and it's not easy, but no one ever said parenting was both of those things ALL the time.

 

[SkiFishFly]

D*mn right, and guess what I got when I threw a tantrum?

I was asked nicely in a loving way to stop; if it continued, I was warned to stop or I would get a spanking; if it didn't stop, I got spanked. Period.

If I DID stop, I was positively rewarded with loving words and praise, which is the OTHER side of the coin of physical punishment.

You may argue with this method of parenting, but my children are loving, happy, well-adjusted, and (most of the time) very well-behaved and polite. They don't live in fear, they've never been abused, and they love AND RESPECT us as parents.

That is DIRECT PROOF that your assertions that this parenting method doesn't work are WRONG.

Deal with it.

Do you have proof that the employees didn't do this? That they were NOT helped?

You're adding situational information that you have NO direct evidence of into a thread where it doesn't belong.

Talk about "strayed comments..."

Wrong answer. They sure as H*LL know why they're getting a spanking when the spanking is done immediately and quickly after the bad behavior when you've tried everything else to get them to stop.

Do you actually have children of your own?

If you do, then you already know the answer to this question: because sometimes positive reinforcement isn't enough for a child that's so deep into a tantrum they are unreachable OR they simply don't understand anything else AND DISCIPLINE IS REQUIRED.

If you have a child who is acting SO badly that they are uncontrollable, you HAVE to do something. You cannot just sit there and let them continue to hurt or damage people or property around them; to do nothing would be COMPLETELY irresponsible.

Because you're not trying to humiliate the child, you're trying to modify their behavior through the only means left when you have exhausted ALL your other options.

Embarrassing them is not the answer, that causes all sorts of emotional and psychological issues later in life.

It's not a contradiction; I KNOW you're a lot smarter than that, don't insult my intelligence.

Here's a quick overview for others who really DON'T understand the difference:

The first time you were working with a hammer and slammed your thumb, did you slow down and pay more attention once it quit hurting? I'm sure you did.

Did you need a Physics course to understand the relationship between the moving hammer and your stationary thumb? Did you need a degree in Biology to understand why the pain receptors in your body operated the way they do?

Of course not. You were doing something, you got hurt, you changed the way you were doing that activity so you didn't get hurt again.

In a lot of ways, that's the ONLY way a child understands things: in terms of good or bad, black or white, Yes or No. So if you can't explain it to them, the only way to get them to stop is to act. You ask them not to do something, then you TELL them not to do something, then you SHOW them they MUST not do something.

Again, if you have a better way, then by all means write a book, you'll be a Millionaire. Otherwise, I'll continue doing the best parenting job I can and, on the rare occasion it's required, my child will receive a spanking. It's not fun when you have to do that, and it's not easy, but no one ever said parenting was both of those things ALL the time.

Excellent post. There is a difference between the application of physical discipline and physical abuse.
Most bleeding hearts just can't understand that. They think that any physical "correction" is abuse.
My wife and I have a friend who did not believe in punishing their dogs. It was funny to see her reaction when she met my puppy on a camping trip. She was amazed (shocked?) that a dog could be so well behaved. My dog behaves in this way because I used an age old, time tested system of reward and punishment to teach her what was acceptable and what was not.

 

[BVT94]

Lear, so can you tell us that spanking was a very effective way for you to learn as a child? A method that taught you to do the right thing all the time, or just when other people were watching. Did you feel the need to lie to your parents to save your a$$ sometimes? Did you ever feel the need to search out for your parents' acceptance? Because I think that's the message some kids inadvertently get when their parents are heavy into punishing and praise. But this is venturing into a whole other topic.

And we will never see DIRECT PROOF (as you stated) until our children are much older. Anger and separation grow with time, so let's talk when our kids are teenagers.

Next time when your child is acting out of control, keep your ego and need for control in check, and find a safe place for your child to deal with their rage or hold them if you need to so that no one gets hurt. After they calm down and even hours later, try talking to them about why their actions were unacceptable. I guarantee you this works! It may take a few times, but many parents have no objection to multiple time outs or spankings, so why not trying multiple discussions. My daughter has never been punished. We've worked through hair pulling, hitting, taking turns, etc, all the kid stuff, and she learns. It takes a little effort and self-control on the parent's part, but it works. For your children's sake, I want to reiterate that it is totally pointless to try to rationalize with them when they are raging, tired, or react to something they ate. Haven't you ever been really, really mad and had someone try to talk sense into you? Doesn't usually work well, since sometimes you just have to vent. Once you cool down, it's much easier to be rational. Please, just allow your kids the same. Give them a safe place and outlet where no one is getting hurt and let them vent.

Someday we will hopefully treat kids like we want to be treated. To put it in terms you'd better understand, when you got to your new airline job, you probably had to learn alot of new procedures. You likely had the benefit of studying them first, and then an instructor worked with you in the sim, and then you had IOE and then online. Even though you studied all the new procedures, you likely made mistakes throughout training and maybe still do occasionally have lapses of judgment. Would you prefer a gentle reminder of the proper technique, time off without pay, or lashing? Would you prefer I give you one warning and then a lashing? Maybe starting in training we can tally all your lapses in judgment and then subtract pay for each one?

Don't tell me child are different, because they are not. They are new to this new job of life and they are still learning the rules.

 

[BVT94]

Excellent post. There is a difference between the application of physical discipline and physical abuse.
Most bleeding hearts just can't understand that. They think that any physical "correction" is abuse.
My wife and I have a friend who did not believe in punishing their dogs. It was funny to see her reaction when she met my puppy on a camping trip. She was amazed (shocked?) that a dog could be so well behaved. My dog behaves in this way because I used an age old, time tested system of reward and punishment to teach her what was acceptable and what was not.

I really don't understand how you all can justify hurting kids and animals. It's all abuse, when you are inflicting pain on another, especially creatures smaller who can't defend themselves. My dog is well-behaved as well, and he's never been hit. It's called Positive Dog Training. I'm just going to assume that you didn't know there is another way that doesn't involve pain...but now that you know, it's your responsibility to yourself to choose to go on hurting others or to re-evaluate your methods and use your mind instead of your hands.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, so can you tell us that spanking was a very effective way for you to learn as a child?

I believe so. I'm not a criminal; I'm a functioning, respectable member of society and I love and respect my parents. That's about as much as we can possibly ask from our children, anything else is their business of how they live their lives.

A method that taught you to do the right thing all the time, or just when other people were watching. Did you feel the need to lie to your parents to save your a$$ sometimes? Did you ever feel the need to search out for your parents' acceptance? Because I think that's the message some kids inadvertently get when their parents are heavy into punishing and praise. But this is venturing into a whole other topic.

I didn't say it made a PERFECT child, it simply is more acceptable than just allowing kids to go wild with no boundaries.

And we will never see DIRECT PROOF (as you stated) until our children are much older. Anger and separation grow with time, so let's talk when our kids are teenagers.

OK.

Next time when your child is acting out of control, keep your ego and need for control in check, and find a safe place for your child to deal with their rage or hold them if you need to so that no one gets hurt. After they calm down and even hours later, try talking to them about why their actions were unacceptable. I guarantee you this works!

And I guarantee you it doesn't, not with a 3 year old. They don't remember what they were doing 5 minutes ago, much less hours ago. Punishment has to be done immediately in this age group, or it's completely ineffective.

I've seen people try this discipline method, and it works to a certain extent if you don't have a strong-willed child (girls are easier to discipline at young ages, we have one of both). If you DO have a strong-willed child (especially boys), I've yet to see this be effective - the kid usually ends up running all over the parent.

It may take a few times, but many parents have no objection to multiple time outs or spankings, so why not trying multiple discussions. My daughter has never been punished. We've worked through hair pulling, hitting, taking turns, etc, all the kid stuff, and she learns. It takes a little effort and self-control on the parent's part, but it works. For your children's sake, I want to reiterate that it is totally pointless to try to rationalize with them when they are raging, tired, or react to something they ate. Haven't you ever been really, really mad and had someone try to talk sense into you? Doesn't usually work well, since sometimes you just have to vent. Once you cool down, it's much easier to be rational. Please, just allow your kids the same. Give them a safe place and outlet where no one is getting hurt and let them vent.

You parent your way, I'll parent mine.

I simply ask that you don't tell me that spanking is somehow "wrong". If it's effective for my children, that's my business. NOT yours.

The whole point of how this discussion got started was that the child on the aircraft was UNCONTROLLABLE. The parents were NOT controlling the child, they were given adequate time to do so (5 minutes is PLENTY), and they didn't deal with the problem.

BOOM. Gone. Get off, have a nice day.

A quick couple of minutes in the bathroom would have solved this problem for my kids without incident.

Your mileage may vary, as it sounds like you'd have let the kid throw their tantrum.

Someday we will hopefully treat kids like we want to be treated. To put it in terms you'd better understand, when you got to your new airline job, you probably had to learn alot of new procedures. You likely had the benefit of studying them first, and then an instructor worked with you in the sim, and then you had IOE and then online. Even though you studied all the new procedures, you likely made mistakes throughout training and maybe still do occasionally have lapses of judgment. Would you prefer a gentle reminder of the proper technique, time off without pay, or lashing? Would you prefer I give you one warning and then a lashing? Maybe starting in training we can tally all your lapses in judgment and then subtract pay for each one?

Don't tell me child are different, because they are not. They are new to this new job of life and they are still learning the rules.

I WILL tell you children are different, because they are. They're blank slates with zero vocabulary skills until you teach them. NO comparison with a professional pilot in a new job.

To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

 

[BVT94]

I've seen people try this discipline method, and it works to a certain extent if you don't have a strong-willed child (girls are easier to discipline at young ages, we have one of both). If you DO have a strong-willed child (especially boys), I've yet to see this be effective - the kid usually ends up running all over the parent.


I simply ask that you don't tell me that spanking is somehow "wrong". If it's effective for my children, that's my business. NOT yours.


Your mileage may vary, as it sounds like you'd have let the kid throw their tantrum.


I WILL tell you children are different, because they are. They're blank slates with zero vocabulary skills until you teach them. NO comparison with a professional pilot in a new job.

To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

I'd venture to say you didn't see this method done right. It's not letting the child do what they want (that's lazy parenting). It's about boundaries, structure and respect. Going both ways--for the parent and for the child.

I *will* say spanking is wrong and most likely, soon enough the law will tell you the same. There's enough proof that spanking is an ineffective form of punishment and likely contributes to the cycle of violence, so why should it be allowed to go on?

No, I wouldn't have stayed on the airplane. I would have caught the next flight, without hesitation. I don't believe in inconveniencing others while we sort out our issues.

It's an interesting stream of thought coming from you. You say children are a blank slate and need to be taught everything, and yet you don't seem to have much tolerance for their learning curve. By your logic, it would make sense to me that children should be given even more latitude for error. If adults know better, like say a professional pilot, there should be little to no tolerance for them?

But hey, you go on defending what you do. I truly believe you are doing the best you can with what you've got.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I believe so. I'm not a criminal; I'm a functioning, respectable member of society and I love and respect my parents. That's about as much as we can possibly ask from our children, anything else is their business of how they live their lives.

No one said you were a criminal...why are you trying to convince us that you aren't?

Love and respect is earned. Each of us, including toddlers, gets to decide who we love and respect. Hitting is a negative behavior and doesn't yield repsect. Its begets fear.



To believe that children should automatically be able to understand and react as adults is assinine, but that's what you're advocating here?

I think she is advocating understanding, compassion, patience, love, respect, trust.... you know...the positive characteristics of humans...

You can't reason with an infant or toddler; to try and tell me you can is simply rediculous!!! I laugh every time I see a parent try to do this and then the kid goes and does whatever they were doing wrong again 5 seconds later.

No you can't reason with a toddler.....so tell us how hitting is justifed in thier minds. How do they logically understand that being hit is right or good for them when it hurts mentally and physically? Do you look happy when you hit your child?

Hitting just like yelling or using profanity translates to a loss of control. It is a control tactic to get people to do what we want. For example in a place of business if a customer is not getting what they want they may use yelling and profanity. The business gives what s/he wants just to shut them up...

If you hit your child to modify thier behavior is it acceptable for them to hit thier siblings or friends when they want to modify others behavior? Would you hit your child for hitting thier sibling? Tell us, where in our shared society is hitting acceptable? The playground? Schools? Church? Work? In fact you go to the bathroom to hide your actions when you spank you child.

Hitting is a great way to get the behavior you want right now. But it also defines us as parents. Some parents see raising a child as a long term investment. They aren't looking for short term results. Many realize that it takes children a long time to grow & develop, but once they leave the nest they trust themselves and thier (now) adult children to makes the right choices for themslevles and society.

Have you explianed spanking to your child? Why it is being done? Does the child know the boundries of spanking? Do they understand the (double standard) that it is ok for you to hit them but they can't hit anyone? Even so... when they most likely do hit someone (becuase most humans reject double standards) do they know the limits of inducing pain? Where is the line drawn on administering pain to your children or others?

If you could get positive child behavior without hitting as many have, why wouldn't you attempt to do so?

Is hitting or spanking the only way?

 

[Lear70]

No you can't reason with a toddler.....so tell us how hitting is justifed in thier minds. How do they logically understand that being hit is right or good for them when it hurts mentally and physically? Do you look happy when you hit your child?

I never said "hit" your child.

You're using a word in a negative context to deliberately skew the argument your way, when the context of my position has lent no such negativity.

Spanking is not for every situation. It's also never, ever done in anger.

You've avoided the question of whether you have kids; I'm going to guess that you don't.

When you do, we'll have this conversation again. Until then, debating this with you is like trying to have a systems argument with someone who's never flown that type of aircraft.

I'd venture to say you didn't see this method done right. It's not letting the child do what they want (that's lazy parenting). It's about boundaries, structure and respect. Going both ways--for the parent and for the child.

Of course you'd venture to say that. You're defending your position against spanking.

I *will* say spanking is wrong and most likely, soon enough the law will tell you the same. There's enough proof that spanking is an ineffective form of punishment and likely contributes to the cycle of violence, so why should it be allowed to go on?

Suuuuuuurrrrrre.

Spanking "illegal"? Not in the Deep South there, buddy. WAY to conservative for that type of Liberal bullsh*t a la' California.

And people wonder why kids are so screwed up.

No, I wouldn't have stayed on the airplane. I would have caught the next flight, without hesitation. I don't believe in inconveniencing others while we sort out our issues.

Good for you.

Obviously these parents didn't think the same way, and the crew reacted appropriately.

It's an interesting stream of thought coming from you. You say children are a blank slate and need to be taught everything, and yet you don't seem to have much tolerance for their learning curve. By your logic, it would make sense to me that children should be given even more latitude for error. If adults know better, like say a professional pilot, there should be little to no tolerance for them?

I never said there was little to no tolerance for them. I simply said that there is behavior that CANNOT be allowed and, when all other discipline options have failed, you have a choice. Let them continue to have their tantrum, or you can take the necessary disciplinary steps to stop it.

Otherwise, you TEACH them that their behavior WILL be allowed.

But hey, you go on defending what you do. I truly believe you are doing the best you can with what you've got.

As you can go on with your pacifist child rearing and hope and pray they somehow magically learn borders and accountability later in life once they are old enough to understand those wonderful lectures you must give (even though research clearly shows that patterns they set in early life are nearly impossible to change).

I truly believe you and the rest of the Walmart trailer trash raising kids I watch having tantrums are doing the best you can with your self-limited disciplinary options.

Who knows, you might get lucky with a passive and meek child and never have a problem. Good luck with that.

 

[youngin']

For all of you complaining about kids and how horrible it is to be on an airplane with them, get a grip, better yet get the bose headset. Oh thats
right you were the "perfect" child. No, you're that tool that walks through the airport "look at me i'm a pilot" Grow up! I've been that person that gets looked at because my kids may act up, and my response to you is find another seat or another flight yourself! I know your type, nothing is ever good enough for you or done right unless it's done your way. That's life accept it! And for 1900ca don't live in mco.

 

[kf4amu]

I was spanked as a child, with a switch when I was bad. Parental relationships aside (because that is not the subect of this thread), I consider myself one of the most respectful and courteous people in the world. I am also extremely stubborn, which is probably why I was spanked. As a child, I was stubborn just to be stubborn. Now, I am stubborn when I see it as being necessary.

Had I been "talked to" or "discussed" as a kid, I would have continued to do what I did, when and how I wanted to do it. Talking did not affect me one iota. And to a certain extent today, it still doesnt. Even today, things have to make sense for me to believe them. Most everything in aviation is rooted in common sense, which is why its so easy for me to understand and agree with everything, or if I dont, I at least follow the rules and have the confidence it is based in fact and good judgement (TSA notwithstanding) . As a young kid, I didnt have the mental capacities to reason like I do now. No amount of discussion would have convinced me I was doing something wrong. I just didnt care.

Spanking rules.

 

[Propnose]

I don't blame the crew at all, its getting ridiculous what parents let their kids do onboard our flights, from gum to pen markings all over those nice leather recaro seats, just despicable. I say control your kids for the sake of everyone onboard the flight. Good job.

I agree completely! I was on a UA flight a couple weeks ago from SJC to ORD, and there was a family with 3 kids, one of which was litterally jumping off the arm rest into the aisle, over and over. Did the parent's do anything? Nope. Neither did the F/A's though... and finally the kid must have gotten tired and finally sat his a$$ down where he belonged.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Sure is...but you can't do both at the same time!!!

Of course you can....
BTW, we are NOT getting into this one again!