AA may not merge with anyone?

[AA717driver]

Saint Louis is still sucking on the AMR bottom line like a piglet on the hind tit.

That is not true. STL is, according to the Chief Pilot (the Native Chief Pilot), the most profitible hub in AA's network. No doubt it's based on a per passenger or per flight basis. But it may be straight up dollars. It had been number two behind DFW.

As for how many jobs AA would have lost absent the TWA acquisition: How many 727's would AA be operating today? How many F100's? How many of each type did they have on 9/10?

How many 737's were on order and could have been acquired in the past three years?

AAflyer--Just like the TWA/Ozark feud continues to this day, the AA/TWA $h!t-slinging will last a long time. This is new to AA because there weren't that many Reno guys and AirCal got a great deal (REALLY great). TC

 

[ils2minimums]

ils2mins......you are a friggin' idiot.

For some reason, some of you native AA guys (not all) continue to blame the acquisition of TWA as the event that triggered all of AA's current problems. HAVE YOU COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN 9/11?!?!? If I remember right, AA was still HIRING after they acquired TWA.

The FURLOUGHING didn't start till after 9/11, don't you remember? - oh that's right, you weren't the one getting furloughed, it was just us lowly "Kmart pilots" at TWA.

Not once have I said twa was the event that triggered aa's current problems. I have simply responded to the claim that +/- 2000 "native" pilots owe their jobs to furloughed twa pilots. I clearly stated that 9/11 would've had a negative effect on AA. It is my opininon however, that the negative effect was exacerbated by the newly acquired debt, the uncommon aircraft, and the THIRD mid-continent hub AA got from twa...

Yeah, I remember 9/11... On that day I was flying a jet for AMERICAN AIRLINES... An american airlines with over 700 airplanes and 12,000 "native" pilots...

 

[AAflyer]

That is not true. STL is, according to the Chief Pilot (the Native Chief Pilot), the most profitible hub in AA's network. No doubt it's based on a per passenger or per flight basis. But it may be straight up dollars. It had been number two behind DFW.

As for how many jobs AA would have lost absent the TWA acquisition: How many 727's would AA be operating today? How many F100's? How many of each type did they have on 9/10?

How many 737's were on order and could have been acquired in the past three years?

AAflyer--Just like the TWA/Ozark feud continues to this day, the AA/TWA $h!t-slinging will last a long time. This is new to AA because there weren't that many Reno guys and AirCal got a great deal (REALLY great). TC

I understand TC....

ILS2Mins, We have had a few HI6s put out. In all truthfullness STL made money this pat summer. If not mistaken STL alone made over 8million (profit) just over the summer. Loads are very high, and unlike many think we do not DH a bunch of crews out of STL to ORD or DFW. If not mistaken there is one crew that flies down to DFW to fly the HNL trip. However if you look at the crew allocations for the 777 flying. They DH FOs and FBs all over the system to fly certain flights out of certain bases.

Regards,

AAflyer

 

[krewmeel]

For the record AMR bought TWA for about $500 million. Quite a bargain for a company with 3 hubs, 190 airplanes (all newer than the ones in the American fleet), gates, route authority and 2500 trained pilots. AMR did not have to shoulder TWA's debt load because it put the company into chapter 11 and became it's Debtor in Possession Financier. This slick trick got rid of most of TWA's considerable financial burdens including a cash sucking agreement with former CEO, alias corporate raider, Carl Ichan. Would TWA have survived after 911 without the buyout.....I don't know. I do know that this idea that TWA dragged down AMR due it's aquisition cost is false. I also know that quite a few "natives" (mostly Reno Air guys, actually) were saved from the street due to the TWA pilots being used as cannon fodder in the most unfair pilot seniority integration in airline history.

 

[ils2minimums]

and unlike many think we do not DH a bunch of crews out of STL to ORD or DFW. If not mistaken there is one crew that flies down to DFW to fly the HNL trip. However if you look at the crew allocations for the 777 flying. They DH FOs and FBs all over the system to fly certain flights out of certain bases.

Regards,

AAflyer

AAflyer,
I don't want this to turn into something worse than it already is. I, like you, am sick of AA threads turning into a bashing by a bunch of anonymous cowards.

I will always defer to gentleman's rules and will usually take any disagreement with a fellow AA pilot to PM's rather than a public message board. However, with regard to the above two statements: first, yes, AA does indeed DHD 777 pilots to cover trips in other bases, but NONE of those DHD's are due to an agreement such as Supp. CC and they don't cost the company nearly as much as the full-scale DHD's of entire crews to cover out-of-base flying. The two things, while seeming similar, are diametrically different...

With regard to your assertion that we don't DHD pilots from STL to ORD and DFW to fly their sequences, please go take a look at the DEC allocation sheet for SLT 767 D. You will find that the following sequences actually begin, end, or both with a scheduled DHD to/from DFW and ORD:

SEQ's: 30097, 30098, 30099, 30100, 30101, 30103, 30105, 30106, 30109, 30112, 30113, 30115, 30116, 30118, 30120, 30121, 30123, 30124, 30125, 30127, 30129, 30130, 30131, 30133, 30134, 30136, 30138, 30139, 30142, 30143, 30145, 30151, and 30152.

Also, while you're looking at that, take a gander at the STL S80 D allocations and look at how many of the sequences leave STL and spend the next 3-4 days bouncing in and out of ORD and DFW, never touching STL until the last leg home...

You are correct about the HNL flights. The entire SLT 767 I bidsheet consists of nothing but DHD's to DFW to cover the HNL flight and then a return DHD to STL from DFW...

 

[Draginass]

AA - TWA. Who cares. I'm tired of listening to this tripe. TWA's gone. AA's still here, at least for now.

 

[AA717driver]

Sorry, Dragin, more tripe...

ils2--I understand about the 767/I pairings. What I don't understand is why AA persists in keeping an international base in STL. There isn't anything in CC (that I can find) that requires this.

I figure they think that if it stirs the pot (AA v. TWA) then it's a good thing even if it costs money. TC

 

[ils2minimums]

I figure they think that if it stirs the pot (AA v. TWA) then it's a good thing even if it costs money. TC

I couldn't agree more, TC.

Along those same lines, I truly believe this whole China debacle is the work of AMR mgmt pitting employee groups against each other...

Quick and dirty about what I mean:

- AMR bids for China
- APA issues its list of "demands" including one which riles flight attendants
- (it's my belief that this is where AMR finds out they're not getting route) so:
- AMR dismisses the demands out-of-hand but not before F/A's revolt
- AMR then "amends" request to fly DFW-ORD-PEK due to "pilot's contract"
- Now when official word comes that AA doesn't get the route, AMR mgmt can blame the pilots publicly and turn ALL employee groups against us once again... All the while the "leadership" at APA is chasing windmills...

 

[JAM-BRO]

American may stay above the fray

Talk of airline mergers is flying, but American may sit this one out

quote]


GOOD!!!!!!!
I don't want to be stapled!!!!!!!1

 

[shroomwell]

I am starting a pool. When will the AA TWA bickering stop? First bet is on 10 years from now, it goes all the way to 30 years. Who's in?

 

[Thebadcat1313]

That statement is absolute conjecture and assumes that AA would've had to react exactly the same way it did if AMR hadn't purchased twa. The billions in twa debt (not to mention the millions in DIP financing) and the useless STL hub caused a very substantial drain on the AA bottom line, thus forcing drastic measures. My conjectural statement is this: Had Carty not lept into this ill-advised venture, AA would've been in better financial shape and thus able to weather the post-9/11 downturn with much a much smaller percentage of shrinkage. The purchase of twa was the most monumentally unfortunate event in the 75 history of American Airlines...

Key word here being "post 9/11 downturn". Prior to 9/11, the TWA acquisition was hailed by most of the analysts as a brilliant move. Nobody doubts that AA would not have done the transaction post 9/11. Problem is, it's so dang hard to predict these things. The "substantial drain" on AA's bottom line came in large part due to the lopsided "integration" of the TWA pilots/flight attendants. AA simply could not draw down the fleet as neccessary after 9/11 because the two companies were on separate certificates and the number of furloughs required would have resulted in parking the TWA fleet. This was not an option. Had the groups been integrated in a manner consistent with, say, ALPA merger policy, the furloughs would have been deeper, sooner. This would have saved AA billions and put it on track to a quicker recovery.

With that being said, AA retains about 100 TWA airplanes and the 4% market share we brought to the table. There are only around 450 TWA pilots (out of 2350) and zero flight attendants left on the property. It's hard to quantify just how much of the current AA route structure is due to the TWA acquisition but, percentagewise, it's a lot more than that represented by the pilots and other employees that remain there.

 

[100 c.i.]

AAflyer,
I don't want this to turn into something worse than it already is. I, like you, am sick of AA threads turning into a bashing by a bunch of anonymous cowards.

I will always defer to gentleman's rules and will usually take any disagreement with a fellow AA pilot to PM's rather than a public message board. However, with regard to the above two statements: first, yes, AA does indeed DHD 777 pilots to cover trips in other bases, but NONE of those DHD's are due to an agreement such as Supp. CC and they don't cost the company nearly as much as the full-scale DHD's of entire crews to cover out-of-base flying. The two things, while seeming similar, are diametrically different...

With regard to your assertion that we don't DHD pilots from STL to ORD and DFW to fly their sequences, please go take a look at the DEC allocation sheet for SLT 767 D. You will find that the following sequences actually begin, end, or both with a scheduled DHD to/from DFW and ORD:

SEQ's: 30097, 30098, 30099, 30100, 30101, 30103, 30105, 30106, 30109, 30112, 30113, 30115, 30116, 30118, 30120, 30121, 30123, 30124, 30125, 30127, 30129, 30130, 30131, 30133, 30134, 30136, 30138, 30139, 30142, 30143, 30145, 30151, and 30152.

Also, while you're looking at that, take a gander at the STL S80 D allocations and look at how many of the sequences leave STL and spend the next 3-4 days bouncing in and out of ORD and DFW, never touching STL until the last leg home...

You are correct about the HNL flights. The entire SLT 767 I bidsheet consists of nothing but DHD's to DFW to cover the HNL flight and then a return DHD to STL from DFW...

ILS, I to think CC along with all the waste sucks, but dont blame that on the TWA pilots. If APA/AA would have gave us some form of integration CC would not exist. P.S. Thanks for giving me X-mass and Newyears off again!

 

[AA717driver]

I am starting a pool. When will the AA TWA bickering stop? First bet is on 10 years from now, it goes all the way to 30 years. Who's in?

Till the last TWA and AA pilots are gone who were on the property at the time of the integration. I'm waiting for newhires at AA so THEY can start bitching about the integration!

I'm sure there is still bickering between AirWisconsin and MVA guys. I KNOW there is still pi$$ing going on between TWA and OZ. Ditto NWA and Republic.

Better pace yourself, it's not going to go away anytime soon. TC

 

[aa73]

Till the last TWA and AA pilots are gone who were on the property at the time of the integration. I'm waiting for newhires at AA so THEY can start bitching about the integration!

I'm sure there is still bickering between AirWisconsin and MVA guys. I KNOW there is still pi$$ing going on between TWA and OZ. Ditto NWA and Republic.

Better pace yourself, it's not going to go away anytime soon. TC

Standar M.O. for every past merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines.

What we're gonna need now - once the recall is underway - is for EVERY pilot, regardless of background, to join in unity as AA pilots if we want the kind of contract we deserve. That is the main thing we should be discussing now!

73

 

[pylut]

Hey we screwed you.... but now you need to work with us. uh huh, I see.

how long will the conflict go on. Well, aa pilots will forever be the ones that screwed the TWA employees. aa'ers seem to have worked so hard in the last few years to really live up to all the unsavory nicknames and stereotypes associated with them. heck you even spawned a few new ones. That is aa's legacy.

 

[Mach8Forest]

That statement is absolute conjecture and assumes that AA would've had to react exactly the same way it did if AMR hadn't purchased twa. The billions in twa debt (not to mention the millions in DIP financing) and the useless STL hub caused a very substantial drain on the AA bottom line, thus forcing drastic measures. My conjectural statement is this: Had Carty not lept into this ill-advised venture, AA would've been in better financial shape and thus able to weather the post-9/11 downturn with much a much smaller percentage of shrinkage. The purchase of twa was the most monumentally unfortunate event in the 75 history of American Airlines...

Just curios, DID they give you an IQ test before they hired you?
Mach8Forest

 

[aa73]

Hey we screwed you.... but now you need to work with us. uh huh, I see.

how long will the conflict go on. Well, aa pilots will forever be the ones that screwed the TWA employees. aa'ers seem to have worked so hard in the last few years to really live up to all the unsavory nicknames and stereotypes associated with them. heck you even spawned a few new ones. That is aa's legacy.

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Standar M.O. for every past merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines.

What we're gonna need now - once the recall is underway - is for EVERY pilot, regardless of background, to join in unity as AA pilots if we want the kind of contract we deserve. That is the main thing we should be discussing now!

73

You want UNITY NOW. What a joke. Date of Hire Merger of something close and fair and you could have had this.
Take one step off that curve while picketing and I will reclaim my left seat instantly. Do you think that I am the only one that feels this way? How about 2 thousand red tails. Your Bean counters set you up with your own greed. You will never have security with 2000 angry pilots like myself that will replace you at the drop of a hat. Your Union of SCABS took our jobs, Jets, landing slots, and authorities and now you want the warm and comfy feeling of Unity. You AAholes are something special. Let me know when you start picketing, as I will cross it openly, proudly, and multiple times in my TWA uniform. We wont disguise our intentions or ourselves as your group did with your joke negotiations.
Mach8
.

 

[100 c.i.]

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

Are some of you considering suicide, let us know how many please?

 

[pylut]

Yeah, I really screwed you guys. I came up with the integration. I submitted it to AA and APA. In fact, I was also responsible for the massive furloughs after 9/11, SARS, the Iraq war, and any other disaster you'd like to name. Dang, why haven't I comitted suicide yet?

You ask, "How long will the conflict go on?" - and then read the rest of your post. As long as you keep posting stuff like this, it's anyone's guess. Thankfully most our fellow TWA/AA pilots have chosen to move on and look to the future in helping secure a better contract.

I wasn't asking... I was answering the question. Reread, the conflict is the result of your actions and will always be there.

Oh yeah.... i know it wasn't you it was the evil union. it was the apa it wasn't really people, it was just those 3 letters. That seems to be the mantra. Well hate to break it to you (again) you are the apa, it is your union, you fund and support it. If it is not representing you then you speak out and effect change.

My flying career was negatively impacted by two unsavory groups. First by aa's motley crew. Second by radical Isalamic terroists on 9/11. Both groups are evil. Both groups deserve a reckoning.

by the way, how would you know how most of TWA pilots feel. You haven't met them, you were a key part of their furlough. The very small percentage you have met are the ones that have remained employed. Think their views might be slightly different than the bulk of the TWA aviators? I would venture to guess that the majority won't be wishing you and your family any good tidings this x-mas.