Mesaba VS. Pinnacle

[YourPilotFriend]

In 2 years NWA has signed on for the purchase rights to over $20 billion dollars in aircraft; 68 787's + 132 CRJ's + 108 ERJ's.

 

[Terry Hunter]

Great Article!

Check it out...

In-Flight Peanuts

In free market free fall, pilots compete to stock shelves at Costco
Broadly speaking, there are two categories of people we don't want making minimum wage: Public servants who should not be so hungry they are susceptible to bribery (Dean Zimmerman, anyone? Brian Herron? Joe Biernat?) and those whose skills are essential to public safety. Building inspectors, for instance, shouldn't be too dimwitted to spot the brittle concrete in a sports arena or too amoral to look past it. So what about the wisdom of paying airline pilots less than Wal-Mart pays greeters?

Figuring out how pilots are paid makes deciphering how much each seat on an airplane can fetch seem like child's play. But according to the Air Line Pilots Association, if Mesaba gets the wage concessions it wants from its pilots, new hires could end up taking home $11,000-$13,000 a year. With wages like that, do you think the folks flying the planes are going to be the sharpest knives in the drawer?

Rest of article here...
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2006/10/in-flight_peanu.asp#more

 

[Northern Lights]

That was great - in a sad sort of way. I wish that we could get something like that published in the StarTrib, or Freep. Maybe Don Shelby could do one of his "Good Question" segments on the number 4.

 

[Schwanker]

If you guys want to pass on the 70 seaters, then there is no problemo. No seats, no jets. The shiney new jets come with strings attached, and if you don't want them fine...BUT consider this, those jets, no matter WHERE they go, still have scope limits attached to them, so for every 51-76 seater flying somewhere else, that is one less for your crew.


Nu

NuGuy,

You said it exactly right.

Mesaba can operate up to 36 76 seaters without giving up 1/2 Capt and 1/2 FO seats. Pinnacle would have to give up the seats to get any of these jets.

The choice is quite simple. Either Mesaba and/or Pinnacle give up super seniority rights to NWA pilots for these jets in the event of a flowback, or the jets simply go to Compass where mainline furloughees have rights to 100% of the seats in the event of future furloughs.

I believe Compass was created due to the current Airlinks not being remotely interested in giving up super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots in exchange for these jets. NWA mainline wouldn't give up the scope relief if there weren't jobs for current and future furloughs. Compass was the answer.

The decision remains the same. If Pinnacle / Mesaba ever want to see anything over 50 seats, they will need to give super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots (with the exception of possibly placing 36 aircraft at Mesaba). I would think NWA management would rather place these with Compass as well for 2 reasons. 1- it will lower the longevity rates on the equipment and 2- it will keep the 36 jet option open at Mesaba for future "pilot whipping" actions by management. If either Mesaba or Pinnacle agree to super seniority rights in the event of future mainline furloughs, the jets will come with it. The choice is theirs.

Before some of you go off the handle, I couldn't care less either way. I don't have any desire to flow back to either Mesaba or Pinnacle. Just providing some info.

 

[easydoesit]

Don't be so quick to say Mesaba can only get 36 more airplanes without giving up seats. Q400's are very efficient are not included in any NWA scope. I believe this will be the trump card...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Before some of you go off the handle, I couldn't care less either way. I don't have any desire to flow back to either Mesaba or Pinnacle. Just providing some info.

Brand Scope would fix all this ridiculous discussion between three groups that still don't get that should be working as one.
I understand that you have no desire to flow down. I'm sure non of the 49 pilots that did get the job here at PCL didn't want to either. Now, they are being recalled and I for one will miss quite a bit of them that I have befriended over the years. Maybe I look at things in a very oversimplified way, but those 49 that came shouldn't have had to start from the bottom. They should have displaced down. Would that have gotten me out of a job? Again? Sure. But now that things are starting to turn around and is looking like mainline will start hiring off the street in 07, the airlinkers should have that shot. But we still don't get it, the mainline driver still finds pleasure in seeing the linkers go through what's happening at PCL and XJ. Still the mainline driver finds appealing to say "those jobs don't belong to you"

So, really, you have a choice, provide %50 of the seats, or no jets. Take your pick. And read closely, %50 of those seats are PIC positions. So you can bet YOUR a$$ that either you accept the pilots with the aircraft, or you can pass. They're not your seats to "give away", NWA pilots already own them.​

Nu

You know what? I agree with you. therefore I must ask, Why did you outsourced ANY regional flying? I agree with you. there shouldn't be a single A/C in the sky with NWA colors that doesn't have a NWA SENIORITY pilot flying it.This bickering attitudes of "Us and Them" is exactly why NWA management has being so successful at getting everything they wanted out of this bankruptcy.

Thank you to all the pilots from Mesaba, Spirit and NWA Flight Attendants. That cheered us on during the picketing in DTW.

 

[xjhawk]

here is the deal from this mesaba pilot. I am at odds on IF i would vote yes to the contract which our union proposed. I am so pissed at this company/industry i am ready to let this ship sink. Here is the deal, where can i replace a 30 grand a year job? anywhere! and i would be home everynight! But here is also the deal, if i take a 6% pay cut and we replace the 36 planes we lost already, I would actually end up with a pay raise and the new pilots would not be paid any lower than i was two years ago. So i am torn.....DO i cave and sign what the union proposed and bet on a early upgrade and better schedule? Or do i vote no and get the heck out of this industry? I do not know, but i know i will not sign anything the company Proposes.......IE.......that crap of a 5 year contact...and all the crap that goes with it. So if you are a company rep.....count on my no vote and a walk if you impose..

 

[Schwanker]

Don't be so quick to say Mesaba can only get 36 more airplanes without giving up seats. Q400's are very efficient are not included in any NWA scope. I believe this will be the trump card...

Good point. Very true.

Management just bought 2 new types of aircraft. Granted that they seem to be about as incompetent as they come, but do you really think they would buy a third? I'm not knocking the Q400's. I just think the odds of getting them just went down drastically, but you never know.

 

[Schwanker]

Brand Scope would fix all this ridiculous discussion between three groups that still don't get that should be working as one.
I understand that you have no desire to flow down. I'm sure non of the 49 pilots that did get the job here at PCL didn't want to either. Now, they are being recalled and I for one will miss quite a bit of them that I have befriended over the years. Maybe I look at things in a very oversimplified way, but those 49 that came shouldn't have had to start from the bottom. They should have displaced down. Would that have gotten me out of a job? Again? Sure. But now that things are starting to turn around and is looking like mainline will start hiring off the street in 07, the airlinkers should have that shot. But we still don't get it, the mainline driver still finds pleasure in seeing the linkers go through what's happening at PCL and XJ. Still the mainline driver finds appealing to say "those jobs don't belong to you"

You know what? I agree with you. therefore I must ask, Why did you outsourced ANY regional flying? I agree with you. there shouldn't be a single A/C in the sky with NWA colors that doesn't have a NWA SENIORITY pilot flying it.This bickering attitudes of "Us and Them" is exactly why NWA management has being so successful at getting everything they wanted out of this bankruptcy.

Thank you to all the pilots from Mesaba, Spirit and NWA Flight Attendants. That cheered us on during the picketing in DTW.

Dumb Pilot--let me rephrase, I will not take a job at Compass, Pinnacle or Mesaba. I am back on active duty so at current time, the flow back issue is not important to me personnally. It could become important to those on the bottom of the active list if furloughs are in the future. These days you never know. I just don't think there are a lot of current furloughees standing by to bump an Airlink captian from their seat as can be seen by the recall acceptance rate. Most have found something better for the time being.

As far as mainliners "finding pleasure in seeing linkers...." I really don't think it's true. Most if not all wish both Airlink pilot groups the best. I certainly hope both groups get contracts that they deserve and not the crap management would like to shove down their throats.

As far as saying "those jobs don't belong to you..." is a matter of interpretation. Mainline pilots have paid for the Scope through previous contracts and will obviously try to keep as many jobs at mainline as possible. They will also try to protect the bottom of the list if the number of pilots looking for work suddenly outnumbers the number of jobs available at mainline. This is the unions job! To be cynical to someone simply because they work for Airlink is pure B.S. and that dude is obviously a Juliet Alfa.

Wishing the best for all Red Tail pilots!

Schwanker

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Update: Goldman Sach's is now buying mesaba's debt to other companies.

 

[BighitterLama]

And....?

 

[n32jk]

NuGuy,

You said it exactly right.

The choice is quite simple. Either Mesaba and/or Pinnacle give up super seniority rights to NWA pilots for these jets in the event of a flowback, or the jets simply go to Compass where mainline furloughees have rights to 100% of the seats in the event of future furloughs.

I believe Compass was created due to the current Airlinks not being remotely interested in giving up super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots in exchange for these jets. NWA mainline wouldn't give up the scope relief if there weren't jobs for current and future furloughs. Compass was the answer.

The decision remains the same. If Pinnacle / Mesaba ever want to see anything over 50 seats, they will need to give super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots (with the exception of possibly placing 36 aircraft at Mesaba). I would think NWA management would rather place these with Compass as well for 2 reasons. 1- it will lower the longevity rates on the equipment and 2- it will keep the 36 jet option open at Mesaba for future "pilot whipping" actions by management. If either Mesaba or Pinnacle agree to super seniority rights in the event of future mainline furloughs, the jets will come with it. The choice is theirs.

Before some of you go off the handle, I couldn't care less either way. I don't have any desire to flow back to either Mesaba or Pinnacle. Just providing some info.

Whooaaa here.... providing positions for the aircraft is one area I will not disagree with. However the seniority within any company mainline pilots went to would be negotiated between the MEC's and the receiving carrier. You might get a Capt seat somewhere, but could end up at or near the bottom of the carrier's seniority list. Permanent reserve for 5-10 years sitting around at the bottom of the pay scale. Not a very attractive proposition for someone who had already set his sites on 100K in 4-5 years. Usually a 1 year for 2-4 longevity is the insertion critera but that is negotiable. Also the furloughees have relatively little longevity to start dividing on...So there probably would not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CRJ900's


My predicition.... First of all NW has probably already decided where these aircraft are going. Plain and simple...they are helping 9E and XJ management teams badger their pilot groups. Now history shows that NW shrank 9E down to a little over 200 pilots before the growth with CRJ's. Even now the average median seniority at 9E is a bit UNDER 2 years. Basically everyone is at the bottom of the food chain there. It looks like NW is helping XJ do the same thing. If I were a betting man I would predict that XJ gets all or half of the 900's along with the 15 parked 200's.

9E might even lose about 30 or so of the 200's to XJ. This would open up the "fragementation" can of worms allowing 9E pilots to ask for seniority integration at XJ.

As for the options being converted tp Q400's. It certainly could happen, but that would be another carrot dangled at the pilots of every regional. Right now the Saabs are probably the prop choice. A larger prop would make a lot of sense but the industry is to marketing driven right now. I think the fleet will be near even with a lot of low seniority pilots at each airline. What more could management teams ask for.

Another scenario. NW is trying to reshape the face of airline wages. They scrap both XJ and 9E just to prove a point to labor. That would likely ruin NW. They probably think replacing the two carriers completely is doable. It would be at the expense of a lot of feed for a long time.



NOW............
9e management is pushing for a contract that will allow them to start up other non union carriers. 9E also wants an inferior CBA that will let them keep rolling in the cash. XJ has cash on hand.....I think the real war is for who is trying to end up buying/being compass. Trenery is salivating at the thought of a brand new airline with bigger aircraft flown at minimum wage by 1500 hour capts and 200 FO's right out of some academy. Foley salivates every day that he counts the 100 plus million he got away with..... They both want a brand new cash cow to drain....



Let the games begin......

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

 

[XJohXJ]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

OH PLEASE!! GMAFB. I used to think that you had some reasoning hidden in your inflammatory statements, but making lame excuses for the life-crushing evil deeds of Red Tail management, at any level, is just pathetic.

 

[n32jk]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

Well I agree...not attacking pilots personally...just all labor groups. again nothing personal...we just want you all as close to minimum wage as possible. As for one trade group. I think several years ago when the mechanics gave up scope for pay..the stage was set to destroy them. I think that may not have been personal...but certainly vindictive. Emboldened with the success of stomping the mechanics down, I think alll labor groups were next.

 

[profit]

NuGuy,

You said it exactly right.

Mesaba can operate up to 36 76 seaters without giving up 1/2 Capt and 1/2 FO seats. Pinnacle would have to give up the seats to get any of these jets.

The choice is quite simple. Either Mesaba and/or Pinnacle give up super seniority rights to NWA pilots for these jets in the event of a flowback, or the jets simply go to Compass where mainline furloughees have rights to 100% of the seats in the event of future furloughs.

I believe Compass was created due to the current Airlinks not being remotely interested in giving up super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots in exchange for these jets. NWA mainline wouldn't give up the scope relief if there weren't jobs for current and future furloughs. Compass was the answer.

.

Respectfully, I must call BS on that. Compass was created as a future potential whipsaw ONLY because NWA pilots allowed it. Those aircraft, seats and jobs should have all been on the MAINLINE PROPERTY. NWA pilots have allowed just one more future airlink.

I personally would welcome a flowback if 9E, XJ, and NWA all had a single seniority list.

 

[xjcaptain]

9E might even lose about 30 or so of the 200's to XJ. This would open up the "fragementation" can of worms allowing 9E pilots to ask for seniority integration at XJ.

Not to stir the pot, but I can pretty much guarantee that that will never happen again at XJ. You might recall that a few years back we took on some 9E people when they were shrinking and we were growing. It was done with the written agreement that if the tables were turned 9E would do the same for us. When the time came, they did not honor the agreement. Everybody had lots of excuses, but bottom line nothing happened. We won't get burned again. Some will say that we are all ALPA brothers etc, but bottom line we took the high road the first time and did the right thing, ant it hurt quite a few people at XJ. ALPA and the 9E group choose not to honor the agreement when the tables turned later. People remember these things. Actions have consequences.

 

[Schwanker]

Whooaaa here.... providing positions for the aircraft is one area I will not disagree with. However the seniority within any company mainline pilots went to would be negotiated between the MEC's and the receiving carrier. You might get a Capt seat somewhere, but could end up at or near the bottom of the carrier's seniority list. Permanent reserve for 5-10 years sitting around at the bottom of the pay scale. Not a very attractive proposition for someone who had already set his sites on 100K in 4-5 years. Usually a 1 year for 2-4 longevity is the insertion critera but that is negotiable. Also the furloughees have relatively little longevity to start dividing on...So there probably would not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CRJ900's

No arguement here. I certainly didn't mean to imply that furloughees flowing back to these seats would bid senior. You're right, this would have to be worked out. You're also correct that there absolutely will not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CR900's.

Have a good one!

 

[Schwanker]

Respectfully, I must call BS on that. Compass was created as a future potential whipsaw ONLY because NWA pilots allowed it. Those aircraft, seats and jobs should have all been on the MAINLINE PROPERTY. NWA pilots have allowed just one more future airlink.

I personally would welcome a flowback if 9E, XJ, and NWA all had a single seniority list.

Agree. Ideally these jets would stay at mainline. The problem is our leadership at ALPA was weak and scared. They would do anything for the pension and had no problem selling the little guy down the river. In an effort to save face, Compass was negotiated to provide jobs to current and future furloughs.

When scope relief was first being discussed, XJ and 9E would have nothing to do with a flowback. Compass was a way around this.

 

[n32jk]

Not to stir the pot, but I can pretty much guarantee that that will never happen again at XJ. You might recall that a few years back we took on some 9E people when they were shrinking and we were growing. It was done with the written agreement that if the tables were turned 9E would do the same for us. When the time came, they did not honor the agreement. Everybody had lots of excuses, but bottom line nothing happened. We won't get burned again. Some will say that we are all ALPA brothers etc, but bottom line we took the high road the first time and did the right thing, ant it hurt quite a few people at XJ. ALPA and the 9E group choose not to honor the agreement when the tables turned later. People remember these things. Actions have consequences.

The difference is that XJ GOT AIRFRAMES from 9e merely shrinking is not the trigger. You should not comment if you do not understand the process. If you grew with airframes shifted from 9E to XJ the legal posturing would start and frankly you would not have a choice. Plain and Simple. By the way there was little in the way of high road with a 1 for 3 year seniority integration and permanent fence from the jets.