You guys have me scared

[big dog1]

Check out Mesa air pilot development

 

[350DRIVER]

Mesa has a superb program. I have nothing but praise for how they have this set up. At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program.. Just wish I could do it all over again

3 5 0

 

[Birdstrike]

Posted by somebody:

"...We got another one. Hook, line, and sinker! Its a sales pitch. You bought it...."

Nah, we bought it. I vote with the Sheriff, this reeks of bait , more bait, and nothing but the bait. Back away clean.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Check out Mesa air pilot development

Originally posted by 350Driver
Mesa has a superb program. I have nothing but praise for how they have this set up. At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program.. Just wish I could do it all over again

I instructed there nine years ago. It is legit and if you mind your Ps and Qs, you can get a chance. Absent the Freedom Air factor, a possible downside these days is the question of when you'd get the chance. Programs such as MAPD and Comair are great when hiring is great. When hiring is not great, you might find yourself stuck.

MAPD is not cheap, but is certainly less expensive than Pan Am, as described above. You also get a two-year degree from an accredited college to boot, meaning that you can transfer a significant number of credits, if not all of them, to a four-year college.

Research my other posts on the subject.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

No Flames from here, just some advice from an attorney:

If a school makes you a promise then test it out by asking them make it to you in writting. If they refuse, they are blowing smoke where the sun does not shine. For the cash you are talking about, a contract should be made. If your willing to spend 80K you can aford 1K in attorney fees for a contract. I have a feeling that any attorney honest attorney will tell you the school's promise has too many loop-holes to be binding or enforcable. Good luck in whatever you do. Do not get bogged down with what you percieve as "negativity". Nearly every post has something you can learn from. Whether you use it is up to you - even if this is flame bait.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[TDTURBO]

80 grand huh?

I paid 1800 for my private in 1984 (141), 1100 for my instrument because I own my own plane and about 900 for my commercial, (I already had most of the time flying recreationally throught the years.

Actually, I probably made money since the value of my plane has gone up substantially since i bought it.


I went through med school for less than 80 grand, I suggest this or either law school if you're so inclined. It makes it allot easier living out your dream of flying and it doesn't turn into a job. The easiest way to ruin something fun is having to do it for a living. Most of the pilots on this board know what I mean.

GOOD LUCK............

 

[adam_jorgensen]

You should talk to me xlr857, if I knew you were going to post here before hand, I would have warned you of how negative it is around here. In some of my threads posted, I not only got tons of negative feedback, but insulting comments from some people who I can't mention (who aren't really meant to be pilots with this attitude.) I get the same thing. Furlough this and furlough that, living on the streets, working at burger king I was even told by somebody "some girls just can't handle the truth". I was even told by somebody that he said "well you better get the degree because you will probably loose your airline job someday". You can't get much more negative than that. There are tons of arrogant people but I'm not trying to start a flame war here. There were also a good number of positive influencing posts that helped me. Only the negative ones put my mind into a decision deciding nightmare. So I'm not saying all the people here are negative and you will always get a negative response but I have read allot of threads like this and never have I seen a place with so much negative feedback.

Yea, I know the times are rough, I know we have to be realistic here but lets not scare away future pilots here because it seems like that's all we get these days. The more negative you are, the more negative it seems. Maybe I don't think negative enough I like to stick on the positive happy side even though its not the most realistic, it motivates me to do so much more than climb the walls being negative. I know that if you were to say that to someone who was trying to get a job at an airline now, you would here negative. Its just the natural response these days. Getting close to the end times I guess.

 

[Please Hire Me]

Shame on some of you. Here is a young pilot looking for advice and this is the way some of you respond? I thought us pilots are supposed to be so called "professionals?" How about giving this kid some advice and guidance instead of trying to inflate your egos by belittling others. There's only one thing I hate about aviation and thats the amount of idiots with a severe ego problem. You know who you are.

 

[bobbysamd]

Negativity v. reality

If people in this discussion were as negative as portrayed, no one would have encouraged the original poster to forge ahead with flying. The viewpoints being expressed are encouraging him to be realistic about his expectations, and to be careful where and how he spends his money.

Once again, it is not realistic to expect to be hired at a regional airline directly out of school (Mesa excepted, and there are caveats to that, too). Being told otherwise is a sales/snow job. The truth is, the best job one can expect directly out of school is flight instructing. And, that is fine because that experience adds up, is valuable, and, with the right opportunity, can be built up in relatively short order to really qualify for the regionals, or freight, or whatever.

Flight schools are career schools. They are businesses. I've seen similar scenarios in two other employment fields. One good example is broadcasting schools. Every one of them makes it sound that if Joe Average attends that school that he can expect to be hired by radio stations in the biggest market of all, New York, immediately. I worked in that business for nineteen years, and the truth is that no matter how good the school may be, your first job will probably be for a 250-watt station in Lower Armpit, Nebraska - and that's if you're lucky. And, that 250-watter could be the only station for which you work. Talent makes a big difference in broadcasting.

Another example is paralegal training. I know that area well, too. The school that I attended in Denver was a big TV advertiser. It talked about a "paralegal shortage," and made it sound as if graduates could expect to get jobs at the city's biggest lawfirms immediately upon graduation. It boasted a 98% placement rate. I knew of people who tried for months and couldn't find a job. Nearly every ad in the classified wanted paralegals with at least two years of experience. It took me a few months before I found a job, and I had to work at getting that job. It was not with one of the city's biggest lawfirms.

I would say that "paralegal shortage" is overstated, but, relatively speaking, there are more opportunities available for paralegals than there might be for pilots currently.

So, there are two examples of false or semi-false promises career schools make. And, that's what people here have tried to caution the original poster about. I should add that although career schools brag about their placement departments in truth they offer minimal and/or ineffective placement assistance. You are your own best placement department.

I'll repeat what others have said. Flight schools sell dreams. In reality, as with any school, schools provide an avenue to your dreams, but you have to do your own driving down that avenue. And, very likely, there will be chuckholes along the way, but, with a little luck and timing and a clear windshield, you can still arrive at your destination.

One final thought. Most of the respondents are either current professional pilots with a lot of experience, those who are trying to gain experience, or someone like me who has done it. In any event, the folks in question have fought this battle before, in their own ways, one way or another. Climbing the career ladder has changed little throughout the years. Listen to the voice of experience.

 

[sf3boy]

xlr587,

After being in the regionals for 3.5 years, I myself have yet to make over 30K/yr since career advancement at my regional has been non existent for years. That being said, I still love to fly, but the airlines have beat out most of the enjoyment that I once had as a flight instructor and freight hauler. The sitting reserve for months on end and very low pay along with being away from home 18 nights per month make for a tough family life. If you get the chance to get your money back from the outfit that you recently started flying at, try to do so. A pilot's license is the same whether you're broke in Grand Forks or just lightly stunned at your local FBO. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Timebuilder]

Negativity. What an interesting concept.

In spite of what you are taking from this thread as negativity, xlr, and in spite of what Adam has said, there is a hard, evolving reality happening right now in aviation. Let's take a look, shall we?

A great number of pilots have worked long and hard to get ahead in this business. For most, the pay has been small, despite the long hours as an "independent contractor" (that way they don't have to pay you benefits or unemployment) flight instructor, freight dog, charter crew, or air tour pilot. A great many pilots here started with the dream of flying the Big Iron, for appropriately big money, following the gospel of Kit Darby, a well known promoter of aviation dreams-at-a-price.

Supposedly, hordes of pilots would be retiring, leaving thousands of empty seats to be filled by eager newcomers, and those jobs wouldn't go away, since nothing would quench the public's desire to fly, right? As you know, all of that has changed. Along with retiring pilots, there have been retiring aircraft and retiring routes. Trips that once required an MD-80 are now being serviced with a "regional jet", with a crew that makes far less than their predecessors.

Add in September 11th, 2001 to this mix, and stir in fear and regulatory paranoia. Make the public wait for an extended period of time for each flight, and subject them to nonsensical searches of US Senators and grandmothers.

As a result of all this, you have a shrinkage of the best paying, most prestigious jobs in commercial aviation. Instead of a simple freeze in hiring, you have a decrease of the sought after positions, placing many highly qualified people on the street. This means that the commuter pilot does not move up to the "major" airline job for which he has waited for many years. The flight instructor is finding it extrememly difficult to be hired by a regional, and the new flight instructor has trouble finding work at a flight school.

What this respresents to guys like you, xlr and Adam, is that this is a changing industry that will take longer to produce a satisfactory career for you than many of the academy and flight school/college operators would have you believe. Some may actually produce a legitimate job interview at a "regional" airline for you. Then what? Are you ready for what comes next? A lot of people in this thread are trying to clue you in to the reality, as it stands right now and for the near term. If you judge the attitudes as merely "arrogant" or "negative", then you haven't dug deeply enough into this industry before agreeing to part with the exorbitant fee of $80K for the privilege of joining us in the pool party.

If you love to fly, I mean really LOVE to fly, than your satisfaction will come far quicker than if you want Big Pay. For a number of pilots, this is just a job, and the pay is the ONLY consideration. New pilots with that midset will be horribly disappointed for some time to come.

So, my young friends, you can look at this and call it negative. That is your perogative. The reality of today's market for pilots is that it is an employer's market, and every job has competition that includes experienced people. That's reality.

Another reality is that bad things can hapen in the normal course of events. It's great that you have a connection through your friend to his father, but lots of companies go out of business every year. Corporate departments close. Stuff happens. Don't think for a moment that one good connection will give you a career.

While you are being overcharged, you will enjoy your training, I think. Heck, you might have incredible good fortune, too. If we have you scared a little, that might be a good thing. Now you will think more about what you are doing with your life, and put more focus into your career. You will take less for granted. Now, your eyes are just a little more open than they were before.

That's a positive, don't you think?

 

[bobbysamd]

The industry

Originally posted by Timebuilder
A great many pilots here started with the dream of flying the Big Iron, for appropriately big money, following the gospel of Kit Darby, a well known promoter of aviation dreams-at-a-price . . . .

Supposedly, hordes of pilots would be retiring, leaving thousands of empty seats to be filled by eager newcomers, and those jobs wouldn't go away, since nothing would quench the public's desire to fly, right? As you know, all of that has changed. Along with retiring pilots, there have been retiring aircraft and retiring routes. Trips that once required an MD-80 are now being serviced with a "regional jet", with a crew that makes far less than their predecessors . . . . Instead of a simple freeze in hiring, you have a decrease of the sought after positions, placing many highly qualified people on the street. This means that the commuter pilot does not move up to the "major" airline job for which he has waited for many years. The flight instructor is finding it extrememly difficult to be hired by a regional, and the new flight instructor has trouble finding work at a flight school . . . .

(emphasis added)

Kit Darby is a sort of P.T. Barnum impresario, isn't he? Excellent, thorough analysis of current times, except that Timebuilder greatly understates the degree of difficulty for flight instructors to be hired by the commuters.

Once more, if you love flying and can live with these conditions, go for it and best of luck. One caution: you might believe at the moment that you can put up with squalid conditions and little money, but please bear in mind that while money may not be everything, it is way ahead of whatever is in second place.

 

[JohnDoe]

Ok, I'll bite too.....

As far as $80000 goes for training, you can definately do it for far less. I'd think a little harder about spending that kind of money.

Guarantee of a job? Even if it IS written on paper, these days I wouldn't put any trust in it. Again, as others have said, beware of that one.

With regard to the so-called "negative" attitudes on this board........what you and others call a "negative" attitude, ALOT of others call it being REALISTIC.

Speaking of negative, here's a quote from you xlr857:


"So see you all the real pilots in the skies and for all the complaining whiners have fun on furlough."

Looks like you are trying to fit in with those same "negative" attitudes you are bashing.......

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight school costs

Further to the above, just a couple of non Pan Am examples:

FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, $64,731.00 for all ratings, including MEI. I instructed there and will vouch for its quality. The place requires uniforms, but so what?

TAB Express: $64,700.00 for ratings up through Commercial-Multi-Instrument. An alleged 100 hours of King Air time. I put up TAB only for comparison purposes. I'm sure the quality of training is fine. I don't feel that TAB provides the right credentials for finding work immediately. You need quals that enable you to find work immediately, even during the best of times.

Both schools are in the category of "gold plated" flight schools, comparable in every way to Pan Am, except that TAB might be a Part 61 school. These are minimum costs. Add another $6,000 to make the cost more realistic. No one completes flight programs in minimum times. Even if you're doing fine and are on schedule, something always happens. In any event, just two diverse examples that prove that you can receive good training for far less than $80K.

 

[Bluto]

Some clarification

For the person who recommended Mesa's Pilot development program "At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program". Where do you get your information? From what I've heard, the Mesa program is about the same price as Pan Am. And no CFI/II/MEI? What will you do if/when you get furloughed from Mesa?

Adam, you crack me up. I sincerely hope that you are a figment of some bored regional pilot's imagination and not a real, live, painfully ignorant person.

"well you better get the degree because you will probably loose your airline job someday".

THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE! It's not negative, it's not insulting. It is an absolute in this industry. I have never met a person who has gone through their entire career without being furloughed at least once. The vast majority of airline pilots are furloughed, laid off, merged to another company's seniority list, or whatever, MULTIPLE times in their career. Maybe this forum is too grown-up or realistic a place for you to handle if these honest statements upset you so much. Go talk to your parents if you want to be falsely uplifted. Be positive all you want. Just don't lie to yourself. Why not take up a proactive approach to the situation? Don't plug your ears when you hear something unpleasant, determine how you will deal with it.