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You guys have me scared

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By the way, no one is trying to scare the newbies away.

I get that impression to at times. But I think it's just the way things are. the pilot world is not doing all that well in the US it seems, and pilots are unhappy.

When people who have no clue about the current job market come in and say they expect to be jet first officiers by 1000 hours and captains making 50 grand a year by 3000 hours, then currently jobless 4000 hour jet PICs get a little pissed off I guess.

It just seems to go against instinct...that such an important job full of responsability and quite difficult, is not well rewarded at this moment for the most part...

Archer
 
archer and xlr857

It's not that people are trying to scare you away, it's that no one wants to see you get taken advantage of. Most pilots would like to see you succeed if that is your goal. These posts are simply to make you aware thtat flying is not always the way the recruiters promise. I'm NOT saying that you WON'T get where they promised, I really hope you do. I have alot of friends that did make it through the bridge pre 9/11, their on furlough now, but will probably get recalled at some point in the future. If the airlines are where you want to be, study the industry, its current condition and expected future for yourself. Take these posts for what they are, opinions. If you stick with this, you will get where you want to be. If you get there faster and with less time and without doing it at the expense of a fellow pilot(scabbing, PFT and other industry no-nos), then more power to you. Good Luck
 
Yes, I understand. The industry sucks, and you guys who are in it are trying to enlighten those of us who are not.

Quite simple.

Cyclical industry, ups and downs. Now there is a big down, that's why everybody is annoyed.

It's just that it's hard for the newby to accept these "facts". Even if they may be temporary...High school seniors who have been working just go their PPL and are excited about flying find out they got to pay some 25 grand for licences and ratings, not to mention university, live on a $9 grand/year for 2-3 years as a CFI, then 20 grand or so as a SIC turboprop if they are lucky, spend countless hours and years doing night shifts in cargo planes, or being called in the middle of the night to ferry some people here and there for a charter....etc..

this outline has been sketched out in front of newbies countless times...it's the truth...but it kind of hurts a little...that's all. And there is nothing wrong with that...it's supposed to. No offense to anyone, but being a 135 turbine PIC is slightly more involving than driving a bus or some other job that pays similary...

oh well, enough for now.

If you love to fly, keep trying to fly. Tha'ts it.

Archer
 
xlr857, check out the Pan Am forum over at JetCareers.com--it might be helpful to get some perspective from Pan Am students before committing to such a large expenditure. I too was impressed by Pan Am's marketing when I first started shopping for flight schools, but it just didn't make sense financially. Good luck to ya.
 
dont be so hard on the guy

you dont know what his history is, so why are you bashing his choice of driving a truck for 8 years. maybe he had a family to support, etc. who knows. give the guy a break.....geesh.


generaltso said:
If all you have ever wanted to do was fly, why have you been driving trucks for 8 years? It suprises me sometimes when I read posts from people in their thirties and forties (you are 26, so you don't qualify) and they say "I have wanted to fly all my life". Well guess what folks, if you really really loved flying that bad - you would have found a way to do it at an earlier age.

 
"Well guess what folks, if you really really loved flying that bad - you would have found a way to do it at an earlier age.
"


That is one of the most naive things I've ever read here. Evidently you've not yet lived long enough for LIFE to have upset your applecart or de-railed a plan.

Minh
 
Cyclical industry, ups and downs. Now there is a big down, that's why everybody is annoyed.

Actually, even during the ups, you will still see alot of posts telling you that the industry sucks. PFT, 16 year contracts, scope, etc. You just can't win sometimes.
If flying is what you want to do, then do it. That's what the rest of us did regardless of what we were told. Those who love it and stick it out usually end up where they want to be. It might take a while, but you don't notice the time as much if you're enjoying what you do.
 
let me speak my mind;

these flight schools approach to students is; sell, sell , sell (as in bfring in students)

i think i read that if you invest so much money ibnto a roth ira when in your twenty's, you'll retire a millionaire.

i had an F/o who had $30,000 debt to get his ratings
 
Hot Topic

This is thread isn't even 24 hours old yet and it's almost at page three.

80K of financial aid!? Good for you. If I had 80K of financial aid I'd have a couple cool type ratings. If what you say is true.....because if you're exaggerating…….I hope you’ve considered how long it will take you to repay even 60K? Probably in excess of 15 years!!

I’m all for making an investment in ones career. I had to get my PPL on a credit card so I could pass the AFOQT. However not every investment is a wise one.

I had an opportunity to fly in the right seat of corporate jet recently. I now see how little SIC time is worth and why companies want a lot of PIC time. Any Julio with a multi engine rating and an IFR ticket can sit in the right seat (part 91), and you’re paying 80K for it. The guys that you’re reading about on this board that are unemployed with 3000K hours, I’d bet that 90% of their time is SIC. In my opinion it’s worth ½ on an application. But you gotta start somewhere. Dude, I hope you’re thinking about your wife and kid.

Good Luck, we’re all counting on you.
 
You are in for a rude awakening

xlr857 said:
Thats good to hear, my school assures me there will be no problem with placement in a regional airline. I guess they have standing orders for graduates straight into an airline.
No, my friend, flight schools don't have "standing orders" for graduates straight into regional airlines. You have been fed a bunch of flight school sales malarkey. It just doesn't work that way in aviation.

With only a couple of exceptions, you don't get a job with a regional airline straight out of flight school. For one thing, you just don't have the hours the regionals require coming out of school. You'll finish with something like 200-250 hours, depending on your program. The regionals want at least 1000 total hours and 100-500 hours of multi. You simply don't have the experience to be a regional pilot at that point. Even with your program and "simulated" jet training, you won't have enough experience or the real world experience regionals want.

That "real world" experience can be flight instructing experience, by the way.

(An exception is MAPD. Mesa hires its graduates at 300 hours. But, they've been training the Mesa way from the first day and have been scrutinized by Mesa from the first day. And, contrary to popular belief, not every MAPD student gets "the interview." And, once you get "the interview," you are on your own. At that point you are competing with the likes of street people with far more experience. Moreover, although MAPD grads have a leg up on street hires on procedures, that is no guarantee in any way that they'll survive training. Any number of MAPD grads wash out, with the resulting PRIA black mark on their records.)

It just makes me worry seeing pilots with 3000+ hours and cant get a job. I will come out of the school with 800+ hours and simulated jet training. What do regional airlines usually look for when they hire pilots.
I have news for you. Pilots with many, many more hours than 3000 aren't getting jobs. It is bound to get worse when United lays off pilots because of its bankruptcy. Many of these extremely experienced individuals will go for the same regional jobs you want. I know. I was in the same boat eleven years ago when Eastern and Pan Am ended and told its pilots not to let the door hit them on their backsides.

I'd suggest you check some of the regional websites. Typically, these days, published mins are at least 1000 total and 200 of multi. I was a regional airline job-seeker eleven-twelve years ago. Requirements back then generally were 1500 total, 500 of multi and an ATP. And, those were only the minimums. The applicant pool drives the actual requirements. I had my first intervew with something like 2800 total and about 700 of multi. I had my ATP at the time.

Having said all this, you are not too old, and if you want to be a professional pilot, go for it. Bearing in mind, of course, the realities that I and others, above, have outlined. Also, get your four-year degree. You will need it to be competitive. Good luck with your plans and don't believe everything you hear about regional jobs straight out of flight school.

Originally posted by generaltso
If all you have ever wanted to do was fly, why have you been driving trucks for 8 years? It suprises me sometimes when I read posts from people in their thirties and forties (you are 26, so you don't qualify) and they say "I have wanted to fly all my life". Well guess what folks, if you really really loved flying that bad - you would have found a way to do it at an earlier age.
I generally like the General's comments, but I take great exception to this blanket statement/denunciation. You cannot lump everyone into the same boat. Everyone has different circumstances. In my case, I had loved airplanes since I first learned to read and watched television. I knew that I at least wanted to learn how to fly one day, but my life took different directions. It took me until my early thirties until I had enough stability and opportunity to commit to learning to fly. And, I never felt that I could have a career. The point is that I did it, finally. For that matter, there are people who've always wanted to go to college, but, for one reason or another, they don't start until they are much older than the typical college student. Don't generalize. Thoughts like that are more typical of H.R. coneheads who probably can't spell "pilot."

PS-Now that I've reread his comments, could this be PFTSuperstar/Riddle Ace/Gulfstream4ever's flamebait again? I hope not - but, it sure reads that way. :o :mad:
 
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Dude, I hope you’re thinking about your wife and kid.

Personally, I don't think he REALLY, truely comprehends the absolute misery he's getting ready to put his family through! Some just have to learn the hard way I guess. I hope he has a good back up plan.

This PFT outfit he's invested 80 grand in has taken him to the cleaners with all sorts of "pie in the sky" marketing fantasies. Reality is a whole different ball game and "it" will soon set in as he's in for a rude awakening.
 
xlr857 said:
This is what Im talking about the negativity on this board sucks, that is why I wont return here. The mystery school is Pan Am and I believe the mystery company with an order for 10 pilots per month is AIRNET. Thank You for all who had real responses and a plan of attack for me to take. Im going to be a great pilot regardless of the airline status. I have an inside contact with Corporate Jets out of Scottsdale. I am best friends with the owners son who is currently attending Embry Riddel. So see you all the real pilots in the skies and for all the complaining whiners have fun on furlough.

Why go to Pan Am if you have connections? Why go to Pan Am just to possibly get a job at Airnet? Nothing wrong with Airnet but spending the ridiculous sum of money at PanAm for that just isn't worth it. If things turn around in a year or two after you get your ratings and some time AirNet will hire you off of the street. A little over a year ago they would take you with 500 hours off of the street. I meet so many people that start at Pan Am and then leave. Don't believe what they promise. Sure they have nice new planes but you can find that elsewhere. I don't think the training at PanAm is better than any place else. By the way who cares if you get an interview? That doesn't mean they have to hire you. TransStates used to have a good scam going years ago where you could pay extra money for sim prep. The day you took the prep you were a great pilot. The next day during the interview you sucked.

If I was to go to any school at zero time I would go to All ATP's. Yes you have to do lots of studying on your own and it is fast paced but you got tons of multi-engine time and an opportunity to instruct there afterwards. You don't have to pay additional money for that "priviledge" either like PanAm. You ever think how much money it takes to produce all of the fancy marketing material that PanAm has?

You better be careful about what you say and slamming other pilots. That attitude will carry off of this board when people really know who you are and you will get no where. This industry is all about connections. Some folks might have 2500 hours and can't get a job while a person with 800 can. It is all who you know.

At a minimum I recommend getting your private license at a place like Sawyer or any other school in the valley that is convenient. You might learn a few things first before thinking you are some **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** smart and cool for going to PanAm flying around in a goofey uniform. If I really had 80k I buy my own plane and train in it. I have seen people get there private license in an Apache, for example, and then keep moving through their ratings.

- AZPilot
 
Go to the local FBO, find an instructor and get your ratings one by one.

You can do it for a fraction of the cost. There aint no hurry in this market.

You can go buy your own small twin and get most of your rating for 80K, give or take

What ever you decide, good luck, there is no better job than to fly.
 
Mesa has a superb program. I have nothing but praise for how they have this set up. At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program.. Just wish I could do it all over again

3 5 0 :D
 
Posted by somebody:

"...We got another one. Hook, line, and sinker! Its a sales pitch. You bought it...."

Nah, we bought it. I vote with the Sheriff, this reeks of bait , more bait, and nothing but the bait. Back away clean.
 
MAPD

big dog1 said:
Check out Mesa air pilot development
Originally posted by 350Driver
Mesa has a superb program. I have nothing but praise for how they have this set up. At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program.. Just wish I could do it all over again
I instructed there nine years ago. It is legit and if you mind your Ps and Qs, you can get a chance. Absent the Freedom Air factor, a possible downside these days is the question of when you'd get the chance. Programs such as MAPD and Comair are great when hiring is great. When hiring is not great, you might find yourself stuck.

MAPD is not cheap, but is certainly less expensive than Pan Am, as described above. You also get a two-year degree from an accredited college to boot, meaning that you can transfer a significant number of credits, if not all of them, to a four-year college.

Research my other posts on the subject.
 
No Flames from here, just some advice from an attorney:

If a school makes you a promise then test it out by asking them make it to you in writting. If they refuse, they are blowing smoke where the sun does not shine. For the cash you are talking about, a contract should be made. If your willing to spend 80K you can aford 1K in attorney fees for a contract. I have a feeling that any attorney honest attorney will tell you the school's promise has too many loop-holes to be binding or enforcable. Good luck in whatever you do. Do not get bogged down with what you percieve as "negativity". Nearly every post has something you can learn from. Whether you use it is up to you - even if this is flame bait.

KlingonLRDRVR
 
80 grand huh?:eek:

I paid 1800 for my private in 1984 (141), 1100 for my instrument because I own my own plane and about 900 for my commercial, (I already had most of the time flying recreationally throught the years.

Actually, I probably made money since the value of my plane has gone up substantially since i bought it.


I went through med school for less than 80 grand, I suggest this or either law school if you're so inclined. It makes it allot easier living out your dream of flying and it doesn't turn into a job. The easiest way to ruin something fun is having to do it for a living. Most of the pilots on this board know what I mean.

GOOD LUCK............
 
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You should talk to me xlr857, if I knew you were going to post here before hand, I would have warned you of how negative it is around here. In some of my threads posted, I not only got tons of negative feedback, but insulting comments from some people who I can't mention (who aren't really meant to be pilots with this attitude.) I get the same thing. Furlough this and furlough that, living on the streets, working at burger king I was even told by somebody "some girls just can't handle the truth":mad:. I was even told by somebody that he said "well you better get the degree because you will probably loose your airline job someday". You can't get much more negative than that. There are tons of arrogant people but I'm not trying to start a flame war here. There were also a good number of positive influencing posts that helped me. Only the negative ones put my mind into a decision deciding nightmare. So I'm not saying all the people here are negative and you will always get a negative response but I have read allot of threads like this and never have I seen a place with so much negative feedback.

Yea, I know the times are rough, I know we have to be realistic here but lets not scare away future pilots here because it seems like that's all we get these days. The more negative you are, the more negative it seems. Maybe I don't think negative enough I like to stick on the positive happy side even though its not the most realistic, it motivates me to do so much more than climb the walls being negative. I know that if you were to say that to someone who was trying to get a job at an airline now, you would here negative. Its just the natural response these days. Getting close to the end times I guess.
 
Shame on some of you. Here is a young pilot looking for advice and this is the way some of you respond? I thought us pilots are supposed to be so called "professionals?" How about giving this kid some advice and guidance instead of trying to inflate your egos by belittling others. There's only one thing I hate about aviation and thats the amount of idiots with a severe ego problem. You know who you are.
 
Negativity v. reality

If people in this discussion were as negative as portrayed, no one would have encouraged the original poster to forge ahead with flying. The viewpoints being expressed are encouraging him to be realistic about his expectations, and to be careful where and how he spends his money.

Once again, it is not realistic to expect to be hired at a regional airline directly out of school (Mesa excepted, and there are caveats to that, too). Being told otherwise is a sales/snow job. The truth is, the best job one can expect directly out of school is flight instructing. And, that is fine because that experience adds up, is valuable, and, with the right opportunity, can be built up in relatively short order to really qualify for the regionals, or freight, or whatever.

Flight schools are career schools. They are businesses. I've seen similar scenarios in two other employment fields. One good example is broadcasting schools. Every one of them makes it sound that if Joe Average attends that school that he can expect to be hired by radio stations in the biggest market of all, New York, immediately. I worked in that business for nineteen years, and the truth is that no matter how good the school may be, your first job will probably be for a 250-watt station in Lower Armpit, Nebraska - and that's if you're lucky. And, that 250-watter could be the only station for which you work. Talent makes a big difference in broadcasting.

Another example is paralegal training. I know that area well, too. The school that I attended in Denver was a big TV advertiser. It talked about a "paralegal shortage," and made it sound as if graduates could expect to get jobs at the city's biggest lawfirms immediately upon graduation. It boasted a 98% placement rate. I knew of people who tried for months and couldn't find a job. Nearly every ad in the classified wanted paralegals with at least two years of experience. It took me a few months before I found a job, and I had to work at getting that job. It was not with one of the city's biggest lawfirms.

I would say that "paralegal shortage" is overstated, but, relatively speaking, there are more opportunities available for paralegals than there might be for pilots currently.

So, there are two examples of false or semi-false promises career schools make. And, that's what people here have tried to caution the original poster about. I should add that although career schools brag about their placement departments in truth they offer minimal and/or ineffective placement assistance. You are your own best placement department.

I'll repeat what others have said. Flight schools sell dreams. In reality, as with any school, schools provide an avenue to your dreams, but you have to do your own driving down that avenue. And, very likely, there will be chuckholes along the way, but, with a little luck and timing and a clear windshield, you can still arrive at your destination.

One final thought. Most of the respondents are either current professional pilots with a lot of experience, those who are trying to gain experience, or someone like me who has done it. In any event, the folks in question have fought this battle before, in their own ways, one way or another. Climbing the career ladder has changed little throughout the years. Listen to the voice of experience.
 
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xlr587,

After being in the regionals for 3.5 years, I myself have yet to make over 30K/yr since career advancement at my regional has been non existent for years. That being said, I still love to fly, but the airlines have beat out most of the enjoyment that I once had as a flight instructor and freight hauler. The sitting reserve for months on end and very low pay along with being away from home 18 nights per month make for a tough family life. If you get the chance to get your money back from the outfit that you recently started flying at, try to do so. A pilot's license is the same whether you're broke in Grand Forks or just lightly stunned at your local FBO. Good luck in your endeavors.
 
Negativity. What an interesting concept.

In spite of what you are taking from this thread as negativity, xlr, and in spite of what Adam has said, there is a hard, evolving reality happening right now in aviation. Let's take a look, shall we?

A great number of pilots have worked long and hard to get ahead in this business. For most, the pay has been small, despite the long hours as an "independent contractor" (that way they don't have to pay you benefits or unemployment) flight instructor, freight dog, charter crew, or air tour pilot. A great many pilots here started with the dream of flying the Big Iron, for appropriately big money, following the gospel of Kit Darby, a well known promoter of aviation dreams-at-a-price.

Supposedly, hordes of pilots would be retiring, leaving thousands of empty seats to be filled by eager newcomers, and those jobs wouldn't go away, since nothing would quench the public's desire to fly, right? As you know, all of that has changed. Along with retiring pilots, there have been retiring aircraft and retiring routes. Trips that once required an MD-80 are now being serviced with a "regional jet", with a crew that makes far less than their predecessors.

Add in September 11th, 2001 to this mix, and stir in fear and regulatory paranoia. Make the public wait for an extended period of time for each flight, and subject them to nonsensical searches of US Senators and grandmothers.

As a result of all this, you have a shrinkage of the best paying, most prestigious jobs in commercial aviation. Instead of a simple freeze in hiring, you have a decrease of the sought after positions, placing many highly qualified people on the street. This means that the commuter pilot does not move up to the "major" airline job for which he has waited for many years. The flight instructor is finding it extrememly difficult to be hired by a regional, and the new flight instructor has trouble finding work at a flight school.

What this respresents to guys like you, xlr and Adam, is that this is a changing industry that will take longer to produce a satisfactory career for you than many of the academy and flight school/college operators would have you believe. Some may actually produce a legitimate job interview at a "regional" airline for you. Then what? Are you ready for what comes next? A lot of people in this thread are trying to clue you in to the reality, as it stands right now and for the near term. If you judge the attitudes as merely "arrogant" or "negative", then you haven't dug deeply enough into this industry before agreeing to part with the exorbitant fee of $80K for the privilege of joining us in the pool party.

If you love to fly, I mean really LOVE to fly, than your satisfaction will come far quicker than if you want Big Pay. For a number of pilots, this is just a job, and the pay is the ONLY consideration. New pilots with that midset will be horribly disappointed for some time to come.

So, my young friends, you can look at this and call it negative. That is your perogative. The reality of today's market for pilots is that it is an employer's market, and every job has competition that includes experienced people. That's reality.

Another reality is that bad things can hapen in the normal course of events. It's great that you have a connection through your friend to his father, but lots of companies go out of business every year. Corporate departments close. Stuff happens. Don't think for a moment that one good connection will give you a career.

While you are being overcharged, you will enjoy your training, I think. Heck, you might have incredible good fortune, too. If we have you scared a little, that might be a good thing. Now you will think more about what you are doing with your life, and put more focus into your career. You will take less for granted. Now, your eyes are just a little more open than they were before.

That's a positive, don't you think?
 
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The industry

Originally posted by Timebuilder
A great many pilots here started with the dream of flying the Big Iron, for appropriately big money, following the gospel of Kit Darby, a well known promoter of aviation dreams-at-a-price . . . .

Supposedly, hordes of pilots would be retiring, leaving thousands of empty seats to be filled by eager newcomers, and those jobs wouldn't go away, since nothing would quench the public's desire to fly, right? As you know, all of that has changed. Along with retiring pilots, there have been retiring aircraft and retiring routes. Trips that once required an MD-80 are now being serviced with a "regional jet", with a crew that makes far less than their predecessors . . . . Instead of a simple freeze in hiring, you have a decrease of the sought after positions, placing many highly qualified people on the street. This means that the commuter pilot does not move up to the "major" airline job for which he has waited for many years. The flight instructor is finding it extrememly difficult to be hired by a regional, and the new flight instructor has trouble finding work at a flight school . . . .
(emphasis added)

Kit Darby is a sort of P.T. Barnum impresario, isn't he? Excellent, thorough analysis of current times, except that Timebuilder greatly understates the degree of difficulty for flight instructors to be hired by the commuters.

Once more, if you love flying and can live with these conditions, go for it and best of luck. One caution: you might believe at the moment that you can put up with squalid conditions and little money, but please bear in mind that while money may not be everything, it is way ahead of whatever is in second place.
 
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Ok, I'll bite too.....

As far as $80000 goes for training, you can definately do it for far less. I'd think a little harder about spending that kind of money.

Guarantee of a job? Even if it IS written on paper, these days I wouldn't put any trust in it. Again, as others have said, beware of that one.

With regard to the so-called "negative" attitudes on this board........what you and others call a "negative" attitude, ALOT of others call it being REALISTIC.

Speaking of negative, here's a quote from you xlr857:


"So see you all the real pilots in the skies and for all the complaining whiners have fun on furlough."

Looks like you are trying to fit in with those same "negative" attitudes you are bashing.......
 
Flight school costs

Further to the above, just a couple of non Pan Am examples:

FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, $64,731.00 for all ratings, including MEI. I instructed there and will vouch for its quality. The place requires uniforms, but so what?

TAB Express: $64,700.00 for ratings up through Commercial-Multi-Instrument. An alleged 100 hours of King Air time. I put up TAB only for comparison purposes. I'm sure the quality of training is fine. I don't feel that TAB provides the right credentials for finding work immediately. You need quals that enable you to find work immediately, even during the best of times.

Both schools are in the category of "gold plated" flight schools, comparable in every way to Pan Am, except that TAB might be a Part 61 school. These are minimum costs. Add another $6,000 to make the cost more realistic. No one completes flight programs in minimum times. Even if you're doing fine and are on schedule, something always happens. In any event, just two diverse examples that prove that you can receive good training for far less than $80K.
 
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Some clarification

For the person who recommended Mesa's Pilot development program "At a fraction of the price of a Pan Am program". Where do you get your information? From what I've heard, the Mesa program is about the same price as Pan Am. And no CFI/II/MEI? What will you do if/when you get furloughed from Mesa?

Adam, you crack me up. I sincerely hope that you are a figment of some bored regional pilot's imagination and not a real, live, painfully ignorant person.

"well you better get the degree because you will probably loose your airline job someday".

THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE! It's not negative, it's not insulting. It is an absolute in this industry. I have never met a person who has gone through their entire career without being furloughed at least once. The vast majority of airline pilots are furloughed, laid off, merged to another company's seniority list, or whatever, MULTIPLE times in their career. Maybe this forum is too grown-up or realistic a place for you to handle if these honest statements upset you so much. Go talk to your parents if you want to be falsely uplifted. Be positive all you want. Just don't lie to yourself. Why not take up a proactive approach to the situation? Don't plug your ears when you hear something unpleasant, determine how you will deal with it.
 

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