You guys have me scared

[Wiggums]

Just to get the facts right, Pan Am is about $55,000. Includes everything through MEI, over 100hrs multi, and 30 hrs in a CRJ FTD. The $80,000 number includes his living expenses.

 

[Timebuilder]

Wow, that's a wake up call.


His "living expenses" exceed my yearly salary! That's saying two things: the expense of living near Pan Am, and the low pay that I am currently earning.

Sheeeeesh!

 

[wingnutt]

...and if youre really after a leg up on everyone else, check out Ari-Ben Aviator. 25 grand will bring you thru all CFI's, and they will hire you afterwords (unless youre a total screwup). the leg up is in that all (90%+) of your dual given will be multi. most of the guys leave there with about 1200 total and 1000 multi.

...just ask the Pan Am instructors that have left and come over to Aviator because of the extreme lack of multi

...may not be "gold plated", but for 1,000 multi, id do it

 

[nosewheel]

I'm so tired of this flying bullsh#t industry I'm thinking of driving Truck. Any one know of a good truck drivin ground school?

 

[adam_jorgensen]

THIS STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE! It's not negative, it's not insulting. It is an absolute in this industry. I have never met a person who has gone through their entire career without being furloughed at least once. The vast majority of airline pilots are furloughed, laid off, merged to another company's seniority list, or whatever, MULTIPLE times in their career. Maybe this forum is too grown-up or realistic a place for you to handle if these honest statements upset you so much. Go talk to your parents if you want to be falsely uplifted. Be positive all you want. Just don't lie to yourself. Why not take up a proactive approach to the situation? Don't plug your ears when you hear something unpleasant, determine how you will deal with it.

Oh really? What makes you so sure of that? I have never meet a pilot in real life that has been laid off yet. You know how hard it is to hear someone say that your going to get fired from your dream job some day? If that were true, then what would be even the point of becoming a pilot? That's like saying, well, I'm going to get fired anyway so I might as well not put myself through that. You can't say that to someone who has flying as their dream. You just can't assume that for sure. I have heard far more positive yet realistic messages from other pilots. Some even say that I will probably not loose my job. That is what drives you to success, not being told that your going to loose your dream, your future for sure. That will only lead to destruction.

I hope that when its time for me to apply for the airlines, all this negativity will be over. It just seems like today's pilots are bitter and always assume that the worst is going to happen.

 

[adam_jorgensen]

You see what I mean by insulting comments? If I'm not called a girl or deemed a life of misery because I will never get the job I want, then I'm called "painfully ignorant". This just shows the arrogance of some people around here. Instead of motivating new pilots, there here to just throw pies in their faces and rub the bad industry in their faces as well.

I do not mean any kind of offence to anybody when I say this, but I hope that when I'm a pilot for an airline, I won't have to visit these message boards wasting my time. That is the only real reason of these message boards and that is to exchange complaints. A real busy pilot with a life wouldn't have time to visit these kind of places. Please don't think that I mean that to all of you. I'm not saying you all don't have lives so please don't flame me for that. I just hope that when I'm older, I won't be like I am now. As far as I see it, do not seek advice on the internet on message boards. I know its easy but it just confuses you too much. Its good for exchanging conversations and such and just talking but not seeking wisdom. Your looking in the wrong places.

 

[Bluto]

Sorry. Let me try another approach.
You can do it Adam! You're probably better than all of us! Reality doesn't apply to you! Go for it champ!

Oh, and by the way, if all the professional pilots on here suddenly got lives and left there wouldn't be anyone left to give valuable advice for you to ignore.

 

[UPS Capt]

I have never meet a pilot in real life that has been laid off yet.

Well, according to your stats, you have grand total of 20 hrs tt flying small bug smashers. That doesn't qualify you to make any statements about "reality vs negativity" within the airline business.

It seems that when someone doesn't hear what they want to hear they automatically assume the other person is just a bad apple or has a bad attitude. Flying for the airlines is not all fun and games that the movies would have you believe. At times it can be a royal pain in the a#$! It does become just a job after many years just like any other career endeavor.

We all started out with this great love affair for aviation and airplanes after being bitten by the bug...really! Strolling the terminal with four shiny stripes on your sleeve, beautiful F/A's on your arms and flying mere mortals to exotic locals in your trusty B747 were all part of the fantasy while growing up.

When you're young, living the life of a gypsy living out of a suitcase in different locations around the world and making the big $$ flying heavy metal are stuff of dreams...right? Not quite! The reality is that few pilots get to that level of making the really big $$ that the media would have you believe we all make. The ones that have made it to that level have probably lived through the many cyclical turmoils that seem to go hand in hand with the airline industry and there are many. Very few make it to retirement unscathed. Many never make it to retirement at all for various reasons. Bottom line is, if you haven't experienced it, you really have NO idea.

Those airline career years are also filled with stressful yearly checkrides and ground schools, line checks, medical checks and incredible amount of time away from home missing important family functions. The divorce rate is very high among airline pilots. Trips that conflict with your body's sleep cycles are common. Ever try to get a decent night/day sleep in a strange bed while in a strange country, eating strange food after crossing multiple time zones and just before another 16 hr duty day/night? Sometimes we don't have time to eat a decent meal. As they say, "The shine comes off the apple real fast!".

I'm all for motivating young folks to aspire to be professional pilots. I also think it's important to let them know about the down side of choosing a career in aviation. You don't jump into an airline seat straight out of flight school no matter how much money you spend. And, being furloughed, victim of bankruptcy, loss of medical, failing checkrides, downsizing and airline mergers are all very real possibilities throughout one's career.

The thing that irratates me to no end are the "future" airline/professional pilot wannabes who get on these forums and spew falsehoods as truths with regards to lifestyle/pay/problems within the industry etc, as if they would even remotely know first hand.

Why do I even participate on this forum anyway? Who knows. Every once in while a person with a legit question comes along and sometimes is given a "correct" answer by one of the more experienced pilots here. There is satisfaction in that alone.

Personally, I could really care less if the original poster paid $80,000 to obtain his ratings. It wasn't my money and if he's foolish enough to spend that kind of money because of some pipe dream the salesman gave him, I'm not sure he's the type of person I want to fly with anyway. He's already shown poor judgement. I do feel for his wife and child though as they probably have no idea what he's getting ready to put them through. I'm sure they think the airlines will be knocking down his door and he'll be a B747 Capt right after finishing training.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Adam, believe it or not some of us old dudes actually hang around this board every once in awhile because we feel compelled to give back to Aviation. In the past we were fortunate enough to benifit from another aviators wisdom. I just hope that when you finally "get ahead" in aviation that you remember your roots and try to contribute in some way to those coming up the ladder. In doing so, even those who are percieved to be at the top of the ladder have an oportunity to learn. I wish you the best.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[JohnVH]

Question

Hey experienced guys, In your opinions, is it even worth getting into aviation then? If the job is bad, pay is bad, hours are bad, and the future sucks, whats your opinion?

Thanks

 

[Timebuilder]

Opinion?

Look before you leap, have plan B at the ready, and send the rose colored glasses to the recycle center.

 

[JohnVH]

So its not a total waste of time? The way I look at it, if it doesnt work for me, I can still make close to $40K yr doing what I do know. And I can fly. If it does work, I can fly and get paid to do it!! What do you think of that? Im not 100% depending on it, but sure am praying itll happen. Wife is make alot, so its not all depending on me at this point.

Thanks

 

[Timebuilder]

With secondary skills and a supportive wife who earns good money, you are set to explore this comfortably.

Good luck!

 

[El Cid Av8or]

JohnVH: It's not at all a total waste of time. I don't think it's any waste of time if it is in your heart to fly. Too many people get into flying (and a lot of other fields for that matter) for the money. They see nice 6-digit airline captain figures until the wakeup call. I highly encourage anyone that get's into flying, especially in this kind of economy, to do it because they love it, not for the money. If you love what you're doing, the money will come. Sometimes it will come even if you don't love what you're doing but you won't appreciate it near as much.

On the other hand... don't fly for "nothing" since that really hurts the industry as a whole.

Also, I highly encourage the "sharing" of a flight with someone who loves flying, wants to experience it for the first time, or needs to get over a fear of it. If done right, it can really change someone's outlook on life, fears, etc for the better.

To anyone who is starting out or who is like me in a sense that they have a had their license for a while but never had the support or time to pursue their life's dream... If it's what you want to do, then do it. Otherwise, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

Blue Skies, Cool Temps, and Tailwinds!

See ya'll on the airways...

 

[Timebuilder]

Oh really? What makes you so sure of that? I have never meet a pilot in real life that has been laid off yet.

I decided to take a few minutes and try and think if I knew of an airline pilot who had never been laid off, and I came up with one. He's retired, and living in Florida.

Just wanted to give you a little perspective, since I've been talking to airline pilots for over forty years.

Hope that helps.

 

[JohnVH]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the honestness. I have not flown much, but have wanted to do it for a long time, and am finally able to go for it. I cant wait! Do you guys still not want to come down?

Thanks again.

 

[Checks]

I feel bad for that dudes child. No summer camp for him since daddy will only be making 25K at Airnet while trying to pay off a 80K debt. Assuming Airnet hires him.

Serious question, what happens if someone goes thru one of these schools and then, after getting all of their ratings, they file bankruptcy? I dont advocate this, but was curious because recently a 18yr old kid told me that this was his"plan". He also signed up for a pilot factory down South but had less than 10hrs flight time. His quote "All I want to do is fly"

 

[de727ups]

Nice job

I gotta jump in and say this is one of the best threads I've seen here. You have people with a lot of experience trying to tell it like it is....not things the big time flight schools want you to know, though. I've considered myself very lucky to have been only furloughed once in my career and to have made it to a 121 airline only 7 years after I graduated from college.

Adam and XLR....you guys came hear looking to peek into your futures. No one can predict exactly what will happen to you in each of your career paths...you can only go by what each one of us has experienced so far in ours...every story is different. No one is trying to discourage you to be mean....they just want you to know how it is. My hope is as you go from being inexperienced wannabes to professional pilots, you'll gather some insights into the process and come back to give advice to others based on what you've learned.....I'll tell you right now, though, you don't know squat, so you'd be well served to pay attention to what these guys are saying.

In my opinion, these people are telling it like it is....sometimes the truth hurts....and sometimes you don't want to hear the truth....but no one here is trying to feed you a line of BS on purpose to discourage you.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

More hot coals

Despite not flying for a living, wanted to chime in with yet another dose of reality. Was talking to a UAL Captain getting ready to retire in 2003. He was going over his potential retirement/pension stuff that he got in the mail this weekend. I say potential because it dealt with the bankruptcy stuff so it is a guess where it will actually end up. It wasn't pretty. Yes, he'll get by but it will be a humble retirement.
This guy was at Eastern when the bellied up and was "lucky" to get on with UAL five months after the strike at EAL. His pension fund from EAL was diluted due to the bankruptcy there.
I was reflecting my career since entering the working world 19 years ago. To date, haven't been subject to any bankruptcies or layoffs/furloughs. Still have approximately 20 years before I'm eligible for retirement so there is still time though! My jobs for the most part have been M-F, 8-5 gigs. Can't say I like what I'm doing. Would rather be directly involved in the aviation business. I am grateful I live in a country where we still have (for now) the freedom to fly and make enough green to afford to go smash bugs on the weekends.
I realize we all make choices. The life of a pilot seems to be a roller coaster. When things are going well they typically go real well but the business can be ruthless and unforgiving when they go bad. The two guys from Louisville who posted earlier shared some excellent thoughts. I have heard similar stories from my flying friends at UPS. Definitely have to learn how to manage money whether it be during prosperous or bad times.
May your decision(s) be based on reality and eyes wide open. Good luck!

 

[bobbysamd]

Truck driving schools

I'm so tired of this flying bullsh#t industry I'm thinking of driving Truck. Any one know of a good truck drivin ground school?

Here's a list of them. Always pleased to help.

UPS Capt, several posts above, wrote an excellent post about the realities of the business. At this point I'm sure I'm writing to the choir and so is he. Realities include the following: such things as annual and semi-annual checkrides, FAA (or, in Adam's case, maybe, Transport Canada) line checks, twice-yearly physicals by the FAA's industrial physician, and, last, but really first, an exhaustive interview that's tantamount to a large-corporation C.E.O. interview, preceded by a background check similar to litigation discovery. These all come with the territory. Not to mention the politics of the business. E.g., be slightly off in an interview response to the wrong interviewer during the interview for your dream job, and you are shown the door, with no possibility, ever, of reapplying. And, what happens if you lose your medical? There is still plenty you can do in aviation, but you won't be flying airplanes. The long and short of it is flying airplanes is a lot like many jobs; it is fun for its own sake, but the attendant BS obviates a great deal of the pleasure. However, I've learned in two other careers that there is BS in all jobs.

JohnVH, I would try, if I were you. You are young enough. Aviation may well work out for you, and, if so, excellent. If not, you will still be young enough to try another career. You will know that you at least tried.

And, Adam, I think you've misconstrued the intentions of people who've answered your posts. All people are trying to do is answer your questions honestly and directly, and based on their experiences. Once more, aviation isn't strictly about flying airplanes. It is a very tough business - just like a lot of other businesses - and you should be aware of what you're leaping into before you leap.

Oh, and finally, Adam, one of my former CFI students is a poster on this board. After finishing, he instructed, flew for a commuter for several years and made Captain, and got on with United. Unfortunately, he's been furloughed. Now, with United's bankruptcy, who can predict his future? I don't know the number of years that he will have recall rights. Also, let me recommend this book: Takeoff!!: The Story of America's First Woman Pilot for a Major Airline by Bonnie Tiburzi, ISBN: 0517552639. Not only was Capt. Tiburzi the first woman pilot hired by the majors, she suffered a 2½-year furlough and a downgrade from 727 FO to 727 FE. The book may be seventeen years old, but the message is contemporary.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I think this thread deserves a few stars.

 

[Joseph II]

I wanted to share my limited experiences with the original poster.

I started down the path of aviation eight years ago (I was 17). I learned about the good and the bad from corporate pilots while working as a lineman. They would sit in our tiny FBO for eight hours straight doing nothing more then watching TV. I loved to fly (I was working on my private) but decided that I didn't want to be away from home sitting in a FBO for long hours of the day doing nothing.

I went to school to study electronics and got an associates degree. From there, I spent three years working for Rockwell Collins (the big iron drivers know what Rockwell Collins does). I wanted nothing else but to get out of that building and fly.

So, being married at 23, I quit a job paying $35,000 to learn how to fly. When I got done I had my Commercial/instrument but no CFI. I was under too much stress having no income, wife living 250 miles away, and being flat broke. I came back home and got a job dropping skydivers for a short summer. That was a job where the owner didn't care about rules, and if you didn't want to take the airplane up, there were 5 other qualified pilots ready to go. It was fun at first but then the reality of getting paid $0.00/hour for 10 hour days, knowing that your airplane had no insurance and that you would get sued if you broke anything started to set in. I quit that for money and liability reasons, only to go back into electronics. I worked for a year until I could afford to get my CFI-A. My last week of work was the week of 9/11/01. I got my CFI but can't find a job instructing anywhere. I am now working a desk job.

I will never forget when one of the FBO owners came to me one day and said, "Never let aviation be your career. All it will do is destroy your love for flying".

I think I am starting to understand what he meant. My desire to go up and fly on the weekends is practically non-existent, the outlook is dim, and I fear that a career in aviation may only tear up my marriage in the long run.

I have re-evaluated my priorities in life and am going to spend less time with aviation and more time with family. I am considering going back into electronics, and finish my bachelor’s degree and potentially making a career out of electronics.

When the economy picks up again, I may try to instruct part time. Maybe someday I'll own a Cessna 152 and drill holes in the sky... who knows?

I thought I was ready to jump into this abyss called flying. I thought I loved it, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[nonstop]

Someone asked, is it worth it.

Here's my opinion.

Do it if you really really like to fly. You like to fly so much it doesn't bother you how little money you make, how much you have to be away from your family, how many times you have to pick up and move, how many holidays you'll have to work, how many jobs you'll have to apply for, how many airlines you get furloughed from, how much disrespect you get despite your huge responsibilities, how many times your management will take advantage of you, how little you'll save for retirement, how much you'll have to work other jobs after 60.

I enjoy flying. Unfortunately I've come to find I value a stable financial income and permanent residance even more than flying. The fact is I've invested 9 years so far in college, flight training, internships, flight instructing, Flyin the line in a jet... and I have yet to come close to $30,000/yr.... while I could have become a lawyer, doctor, or graduated with an MBA with the same or less money&time invested... making 2-3 times+ the money by now with a far more stable career.

It's worth it if all that matters to you is that you're in the seat of an airplane. Assuming you don't get violated or loose your medical, that's all I would expect to get from this career. To be a pilot. If you expect anything more, chances are you'll be unhappy.

I wish this board were around when I made the decision to pursue this career so I could have got a dose of reality. Unfortunately my only source of info was the media and flying schools, who like promote the idea all pilots live like 777 CA's in happy land. It's such a grand image they paint it's so easy to buy right into it.

A lot of people seem negative, they crush your idea of what this industry is... but they're just telling the truth. Truth is, most people have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they begin this career.

Keep in mind too, the question you ask and the circumstances it's in. This is possibly the worst time in the aviation industry. 5-10 years from now it might be a lot better, it might also be a lot worse. It's just a roll of the dice.

I'll reiterate my answer. It's worth it, if all that matters to you is that you're a pilot. If that's all you need to be happy, you can truely enjoy this career.

To give you an idea of the crap you deal with, here's an excerpt from the real world. Today I'm awaiting the results of my companies system bid results where I'll most likely loose my current base because of a huge staffing shift. That means come Feburary I'll have to probably deal with a hub to hub commute to get to work. Those are extremely difficult. If I fail to make it to work, that will be my problem and I'll be subject to disciplinary action. I can't move to the base I'll most likely be holding because I can't afford any of the housing there. So I'll have to get a crash pad. The commute (crashpad, nonrev travel, food, etc) will cost me approximately $500 total per month. Currently I only make about $200 per month over my living expenses. I can't afford it, it will eat into my meager savings. I can just hope it doesn't last long so I don't need to go into debt. I would otherwise be getting a slight raise this time of the year. But management just upped our insurance premiums, that pretty much countered any extra money I would make.

Blue skies...

 

[TDTURBO]

Serious question, what happens if someone goes thru one of these schools and then, after getting all of their ratings, they file bankruptcy? I dont advocate this, but was curious because recently a 18yr old kid told me that this was his"plan". He also signed up for a pilot factory down South but had less than 10hrs flight time. His quote "All I want to do is fly"

Easy answer, bankruptcy is NO HELP for student loans. They will haunt you forever. As far as I understand it, you will have it on your credit report forever until it is paid.

 

[rightrudder]

Loans for these private flight schools that are not affiliated with a real university (SJSU, UND, ERAU, Etc.) are not considered educational loans that recieve a federal student loan guarantee. They are usually unsecured loans just like a personal loan from a bank or finance company, and can be discharged in a BK filing.

Of course, a BK filing on your credit record will in all likelihood ruin any chance you would have at being hired at a major (when/if they hire again). They do intensive background checks including credit. There are some regionals that do the credit check as well.

Anyone who'd do this with the intent to rid themselves of training debt will just shoot themself in the foot.

RR

 

[Wiggums]

Easy answer, bankruptcy is NO HELP for student loans. They will haunt you forever. As far as I understand it, you will have it on your credit report forever until it is paid.

These loans for schools like PanAm and FSI are not student loans and can be discharged in a BK. However, in all most all cases these places ask for a consigner, so this plan won't work unless your parents want to go BK also. Moreover, employers will be able to see a BK on a credit report forever.

 

[TDTURBO]

I was referring to Student loans in the trditional sense, I didn't realize there were these "schools" operated any differently than colleges. My mistake, I do know that if it is of the traditional type, a guarenteed federal loan, you're screwed if you think you can get out of it, bankruptcy or not.

 

[bobbysamd]

I enjoy flying. Unfortunately I've come to find I value a stable financial income and permanent residance even more than flying. The fact is I've invested 9 years so far in college, flight training, internships, flight instructing, Flyin the line in a jet... and I have yet to come close to $30,000/yr.... while I could have become a lawyer, doctor, or graduated with an MBA with the same or less money&time invested... making 2-3 times+ the money by now with a far more stable career . . . I wish this board were around when I made the decision to pursue this career so I could have got a dose of reality. Unfortunately my only source of info was the media and flying schools, who like promote the idea all pilots live like 777 CA's in happy land. It's such a grand image they paint it's so easy to buy right into it.

A lot of people seem negative, they crush your idea of what this industry is... but they're just telling the truth. Truth is, most people have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they begin this career.

Keep in mind too, the question you ask and the circumstances it's in. This is possibly the worst time in the aviation industry. 5-10 years from now it might be a lot better, it might also be a lot worse. It's just a roll of the dice . . .

(emphasis added)

Moved and seconded. Excellent comments. Don't forget about Kit Darby's "pilot shortage."

Once more, know what you're stepping into and wear stout shoes before stepping in it.

 

[PCL_128]

Is it worth it?

I know that you've probably already heard too much "negativity", but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in as well.

I had the privelage of growing up in ATL in a neighborhood filled with DAL pilots, so I heard all through my childhood the same things you hear on this board that you call negativity. I was lucky enough to know ahead of time what I was getting into. Here' the point: I knew all this, but I still couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life except flying. Yes, there are many downsides to this profession. You can say it's negativity if you want, but the fact is that it's just realistic. No job is perfect, but for me this is as close as it gets. Despite all the BS we have to put up with, I still love my job. That's the way most of us are. We sit around the crew room, on these message boards, at the crashpad, etc, complaining about these things, but that doesn't mean that we don't like our jobs.

What you have to do is ask yourself this question: "If all the so-called 'negativity' on this board is true, would I still want to be a pilot?"

If the answer is no, then you better stay away from aviation, because you'll be miserable the rest of your life. If you don't absolutely love to fly, then this business will drive you crazy. You have to really love flying in order to deal with the BS and be happy.

If the answer is yes, then by all means do whatever it takes to achieve your dream of being a pilot (within reason of course; ie. don't scab, don't fly for free, etc...). Dispite all the crap we put up with on a day-to-day basis on the job, if you really love to fly then you'll be happy. That's really what it all comes down to.

Rant complete.

 

[Jeff G]

I have never meet a pilot in real life that has been laid off yet.

I just wanted to provide a little perspective on this comment with one of my own: I am personally one of the only career pilots I know of who has changed jobs in the last three years or so (vital for advancement) and has not been laid off from a flying job at least once. But I have two caveats to that:

1. The main reason I can say that is that I just happened to land at one of the only airlines in the US that did not furlough in the latest downturn. And my being at this airline is more a matter of exquisite timing than any personal attribute of mine. I don't like to use the word "luck" in this sense, because I think that in many ways you create your own "luck" by being prepared to take advantage of opportunities. However, there is little or no planning or quality on my part that allowed me to avoid a furlough. So call it luck or providence or whatever you like, it is certainly out of the ordinary and you can't count on it.

2. The other reason I can claim to have never been laid off is that I don't consider my career to have started until after the recession in the early 90's. I finished the majority of my training and even my college degree in that time, but couldn't find a steady job in aviation (CFI, jump pilot, anything) until after the downturn was over. So if you can consider a few years of being unemployable due to market conditions "never laid off" then I guess that applies to me.

This is not meant to be discouraging, or unwarranted negativity. That's just the way it is in this business. It's the truth and no amount if wishing it away will make it any different. Maybe things are different in Canada, I don't know. But if it's at all like it is in the US, be prepared. That's really all everyone on this board has been saying.