You guys have me scared

[CCDiscoB]

I think this thread deserves a few stars.

 

[Joseph II]

I wanted to share my limited experiences with the original poster.

I started down the path of aviation eight years ago (I was 17). I learned about the good and the bad from corporate pilots while working as a lineman. They would sit in our tiny FBO for eight hours straight doing nothing more then watching TV. I loved to fly (I was working on my private) but decided that I didn't want to be away from home sitting in a FBO for long hours of the day doing nothing.

I went to school to study electronics and got an associates degree. From there, I spent three years working for Rockwell Collins (the big iron drivers know what Rockwell Collins does). I wanted nothing else but to get out of that building and fly.

So, being married at 23, I quit a job paying $35,000 to learn how to fly. When I got done I had my Commercial/instrument but no CFI. I was under too much stress having no income, wife living 250 miles away, and being flat broke. I came back home and got a job dropping skydivers for a short summer. That was a job where the owner didn't care about rules, and if you didn't want to take the airplane up, there were 5 other qualified pilots ready to go. It was fun at first but then the reality of getting paid $0.00/hour for 10 hour days, knowing that your airplane had no insurance and that you would get sued if you broke anything started to set in. I quit that for money and liability reasons, only to go back into electronics. I worked for a year until I could afford to get my CFI-A. My last week of work was the week of 9/11/01. I got my CFI but can't find a job instructing anywhere. I am now working a desk job.

I will never forget when one of the FBO owners came to me one day and said, "Never let aviation be your career. All it will do is destroy your love for flying".

I think I am starting to understand what he meant. My desire to go up and fly on the weekends is practically non-existent, the outlook is dim, and I fear that a career in aviation may only tear up my marriage in the long run.

I have re-evaluated my priorities in life and am going to spend less time with aviation and more time with family. I am considering going back into electronics, and finish my bachelor’s degree and potentially making a career out of electronics.

When the economy picks up again, I may try to instruct part time. Maybe someday I'll own a Cessna 152 and drill holes in the sky... who knows?

I thought I was ready to jump into this abyss called flying. I thought I loved it, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[nonstop]

Someone asked, is it worth it.

Here's my opinion.

Do it if you really really like to fly. You like to fly so much it doesn't bother you how little money you make, how much you have to be away from your family, how many times you have to pick up and move, how many holidays you'll have to work, how many jobs you'll have to apply for, how many airlines you get furloughed from, how much disrespect you get despite your huge responsibilities, how many times your management will take advantage of you, how little you'll save for retirement, how much you'll have to work other jobs after 60.

I enjoy flying. Unfortunately I've come to find I value a stable financial income and permanent residance even more than flying. The fact is I've invested 9 years so far in college, flight training, internships, flight instructing, Flyin the line in a jet... and I have yet to come close to $30,000/yr.... while I could have become a lawyer, doctor, or graduated with an MBA with the same or less money&time invested... making 2-3 times+ the money by now with a far more stable career.

It's worth it if all that matters to you is that you're in the seat of an airplane. Assuming you don't get violated or loose your medical, that's all I would expect to get from this career. To be a pilot. If you expect anything more, chances are you'll be unhappy.

I wish this board were around when I made the decision to pursue this career so I could have got a dose of reality. Unfortunately my only source of info was the media and flying schools, who like promote the idea all pilots live like 777 CA's in happy land. It's such a grand image they paint it's so easy to buy right into it.

A lot of people seem negative, they crush your idea of what this industry is... but they're just telling the truth. Truth is, most people have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they begin this career.

Keep in mind too, the question you ask and the circumstances it's in. This is possibly the worst time in the aviation industry. 5-10 years from now it might be a lot better, it might also be a lot worse. It's just a roll of the dice.

I'll reiterate my answer. It's worth it, if all that matters to you is that you're a pilot. If that's all you need to be happy, you can truely enjoy this career.

To give you an idea of the crap you deal with, here's an excerpt from the real world. Today I'm awaiting the results of my companies system bid results where I'll most likely loose my current base because of a huge staffing shift. That means come Feburary I'll have to probably deal with a hub to hub commute to get to work. Those are extremely difficult. If I fail to make it to work, that will be my problem and I'll be subject to disciplinary action. I can't move to the base I'll most likely be holding because I can't afford any of the housing there. So I'll have to get a crash pad. The commute (crashpad, nonrev travel, food, etc) will cost me approximately $500 total per month. Currently I only make about $200 per month over my living expenses. I can't afford it, it will eat into my meager savings. I can just hope it doesn't last long so I don't need to go into debt. I would otherwise be getting a slight raise this time of the year. But management just upped our insurance premiums, that pretty much countered any extra money I would make.

Blue skies...

 

[TDTURBO]

Serious question, what happens if someone goes thru one of these schools and then, after getting all of their ratings, they file bankruptcy? I dont advocate this, but was curious because recently a 18yr old kid told me that this was his"plan". He also signed up for a pilot factory down South but had less than 10hrs flight time. His quote "All I want to do is fly"

Easy answer, bankruptcy is NO HELP for student loans. They will haunt you forever. As far as I understand it, you will have it on your credit report forever until it is paid.

 

[rightrudder]

Loans for these private flight schools that are not affiliated with a real university (SJSU, UND, ERAU, Etc.) are not considered educational loans that recieve a federal student loan guarantee. They are usually unsecured loans just like a personal loan from a bank or finance company, and can be discharged in a BK filing.

Of course, a BK filing on your credit record will in all likelihood ruin any chance you would have at being hired at a major (when/if they hire again). They do intensive background checks including credit. There are some regionals that do the credit check as well.

Anyone who'd do this with the intent to rid themselves of training debt will just shoot themself in the foot.

RR

 

[Wiggums]

Easy answer, bankruptcy is NO HELP for student loans. They will haunt you forever. As far as I understand it, you will have it on your credit report forever until it is paid.

These loans for schools like PanAm and FSI are not student loans and can be discharged in a BK. However, in all most all cases these places ask for a consigner, so this plan won't work unless your parents want to go BK also. Moreover, employers will be able to see a BK on a credit report forever.

 

[TDTURBO]

I was referring to Student loans in the trditional sense, I didn't realize there were these "schools" operated any differently than colleges. My mistake, I do know that if it is of the traditional type, a guarenteed federal loan, you're screwed if you think you can get out of it, bankruptcy or not.

 

[bobbysamd]

I enjoy flying. Unfortunately I've come to find I value a stable financial income and permanent residance even more than flying. The fact is I've invested 9 years so far in college, flight training, internships, flight instructing, Flyin the line in a jet... and I have yet to come close to $30,000/yr.... while I could have become a lawyer, doctor, or graduated with an MBA with the same or less money&time invested... making 2-3 times+ the money by now with a far more stable career . . . I wish this board were around when I made the decision to pursue this career so I could have got a dose of reality. Unfortunately my only source of info was the media and flying schools, who like promote the idea all pilots live like 777 CA's in happy land. It's such a grand image they paint it's so easy to buy right into it.

A lot of people seem negative, they crush your idea of what this industry is... but they're just telling the truth. Truth is, most people have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they begin this career.

Keep in mind too, the question you ask and the circumstances it's in. This is possibly the worst time in the aviation industry. 5-10 years from now it might be a lot better, it might also be a lot worse. It's just a roll of the dice . . .

(emphasis added)

Moved and seconded. Excellent comments. Don't forget about Kit Darby's "pilot shortage."

Once more, know what you're stepping into and wear stout shoes before stepping in it.

 

[PCL_128]

Is it worth it?

I know that you've probably already heard too much "negativity", but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in as well.

I had the privelage of growing up in ATL in a neighborhood filled with DAL pilots, so I heard all through my childhood the same things you hear on this board that you call negativity. I was lucky enough to know ahead of time what I was getting into. Here' the point: I knew all this, but I still couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life except flying. Yes, there are many downsides to this profession. You can say it's negativity if you want, but the fact is that it's just realistic. No job is perfect, but for me this is as close as it gets. Despite all the BS we have to put up with, I still love my job. That's the way most of us are. We sit around the crew room, on these message boards, at the crashpad, etc, complaining about these things, but that doesn't mean that we don't like our jobs.

What you have to do is ask yourself this question: "If all the so-called 'negativity' on this board is true, would I still want to be a pilot?"

If the answer is no, then you better stay away from aviation, because you'll be miserable the rest of your life. If you don't absolutely love to fly, then this business will drive you crazy. You have to really love flying in order to deal with the BS and be happy.

If the answer is yes, then by all means do whatever it takes to achieve your dream of being a pilot (within reason of course; ie. don't scab, don't fly for free, etc...). Dispite all the crap we put up with on a day-to-day basis on the job, if you really love to fly then you'll be happy. That's really what it all comes down to.

Rant complete.

 

[Jeff G]

I have never meet a pilot in real life that has been laid off yet.

I just wanted to provide a little perspective on this comment with one of my own: I am personally one of the only career pilots I know of who has changed jobs in the last three years or so (vital for advancement) and has not been laid off from a flying job at least once. But I have two caveats to that:

1. The main reason I can say that is that I just happened to land at one of the only airlines in the US that did not furlough in the latest downturn. And my being at this airline is more a matter of exquisite timing than any personal attribute of mine. I don't like to use the word "luck" in this sense, because I think that in many ways you create your own "luck" by being prepared to take advantage of opportunities. However, there is little or no planning or quality on my part that allowed me to avoid a furlough. So call it luck or providence or whatever you like, it is certainly out of the ordinary and you can't count on it.

2. The other reason I can claim to have never been laid off is that I don't consider my career to have started until after the recession in the early 90's. I finished the majority of my training and even my college degree in that time, but couldn't find a steady job in aviation (CFI, jump pilot, anything) until after the downturn was over. So if you can consider a few years of being unemployable due to market conditions "never laid off" then I guess that applies to me.

This is not meant to be discouraging, or unwarranted negativity. That's just the way it is in this business. It's the truth and no amount if wishing it away will make it any different. Maybe things are different in Canada, I don't know. But if it's at all like it is in the US, be prepared. That's really all everyone on this board has been saying.